Do women follow the golden rule in romantic relationships?

[_ajax18]

You mentioned that you are married. Do you feel like the relationship you and your wife have is "fair" or balanced?

What types of goals do you two set to achieve the kind of relationship you want?

I wouldn't feel right talking about my wife online and it really has nothing to do with her. I had these questions before I was married and I may go to my grave with these questions. Real life can't always wait for the discovery of philosophical truths. Yes I've been to counseling and posed these questions. No, the counselor would not consider them, probably because of her own congnitive dissonance. To me, that was pretty crummy, especially when I was paying her to help me figure this out, not ignore it like every other human being does to get by. I guess that's the beauty of a medical degree, you don't have to fix something or even try to fix something to get paid.

In any conflict of interest, both people can't always get what they want. That's why we have rules and fairness measures and culture norms. That's what I think our society lacks. We choose to focus on getting what we want while ignoring the fact that we can't both have what we want.

[_ajax18]

Women and men seem so different to me that the calculations would be pretty complex.

I want to see the calculation when you're finished computing. Please.

I guess that's why I'm trying to figure out what tally system women are using. I know the tally system that I use. To say that we give our all to meet each others needs avoids the reality that fairness, rules, and explicit norms are necessary between two beings in which a conflict of interest naturally exists.

So before I can even start calculating I need to find a few women who recognize that these explicit rules and fairness concepts are necessary. One fairness that women often talk about is polygamy. I see it as a conflict of interest. To be happy, the man needs multiple partners. Does she enter polygamy because she's doing everything to meet his needs. No of course not. Why? Because that wouldn't be fair to her, right? You can't just negate the need for rules or the existence of fairness.

[_ajax18]

The answer to that question is an emphatic "NO".

Let me ask you this, "Should women follow the golden rule in relatioships?"

I realize we may have a different paradigm but I think it's similar enough. I believe in a Celestial kindgom where you have to live a Celestial law to keep your residence there. Others believe in a better society and a better future that everyone should pay an equal price to participate in. For the purposes of this question, the ideas are similar enough in my view in that each seeks the greatest good of the individual through the improvement of the community. Secular morality still has the deficiency that it can't make everything fair to everybody. While religion could conceivably do this, it has the deficiency that it's not even real by any scientific standard.

[_marg]

So what is the issue Ajax? My impression is that you think polygamy should be legal because you think men need more sexual partners than one and that the only reason it isn't practiced is because of secular influence and laws. Is that what your issues pretty much boil down to?

[_beastie]

You do realize that a female could construct an equally damning summary of male behavior, based on her own 'data'? In fact, I've heard several females do just that.

I think that the real question is how well ANYONE, male or female follows the golden rule in life overall. I would say that what we really do a good job with is convincing ourselves that we, personally, do follow the golden rule (or whatever moral code we espouse), while other people really suck at it!! Funnily, the people we think suck at it are thinking the same thing about us.

But the short answer is: lots of people suck (male and female) but not all do. Lots of relationships suck, but not all do. I have to say, ajax, based on these comments and others you've made, that your relationship must really suck. Usually when that happens it's both parties making it suck, not just one.

[_truth dancer]

Maybe I'm skewed on this one...

I think you are right...

Perhaps my reaction is unique in some ways

I agree with you

Venturing a guess, I'm thinking your therapist may not have given you the answers you want because she was perhaps trying to help you with the underlying issues.

To be honest ajax, I think your paradigm is skewed. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you here just reflecting some of your thoughts, but you seem to have a near obsession with fairness, do you feel this?

You have shared experiences that indicate you felt men were treated really unfairly in your early years or in your family of origin, perhaps that has resulted in a rather unusual or distorted view of women and life? Do you have a lot of resentment? Anger? Frustration?

Hmmm...

~dancer~

[_ajax18]

Funnily, the people we think suck at it are thinking the same thing about us.

I agree. But don't you think there must exist some objective answer to fairness. It can't all be just perception and individual bias.

But the short answer is: lots of people suck (male and female) but not all do.

I think most do. That's partly why I espouse the belief that very few people will make it to the Celestial kingdom.

I have to say, ajax, based on these comments and others you've made, that your relationship must really suck.

It's a fair conclusion but not an accurate one. I felt this way before I ever got in my current relationship. It really has nothing to do with my current relationship. It's a general trend that I observe.

Usually when that happens it's both parties making it suck, not just one.

And if blame can rightly exist at all, there must be some expectation that one has that the other isn't meeting. What I'm driving at is, "What is fair to expect?" Or is it just a case of, "Might is right." If that is true, than the only way to be happy is to empower yourself.

[_ajax18]

I think you are right...

What facts am I not considering that would make my view of the world skewed? Or are you saying what I see happen really doesn't happen?

Venturing a guess, I'm thinking your therapist may not have given you the answers you want because she was perhaps trying to help you with the underlying issues.

What underlying issue? I thought I laid out my issues pretty honestly and clearly.

but you seem to have a near obsession with fairness, do you feel this?

Oh definitely. I'd rather go to war and loose a limb than suffer unfairness. I'm not really convinced that's a ultimately a bad thing either. Part of what I enjoy today is because my ancestors felt this way.

[Guest]

Women and men seem so different to me that the calculations would be pretty complex.

I want to see the calculation when you're finished computing. Please.

I guess that's why I'm trying to figure out what tally system women are using. I know the tally system that I use. To say that we give our all to meet each others needs avoids the reality that fairness, rules, and explicit norms are necessary between two beings in which a conflict of interest naturally exists.

Well, I don't think it's necessary to give all to meet each other's needs. What if I was with a man whose needs hurt me in some way? Or you were with a woman whose needs were that she could be a practicing Hare Krishna? I mean, we try to get into relationships with people where their needs aren't so outside what we'd be willing to give. I'm fairly simple -- I want sex fairly often, a kind word here and there, and the garbage to be taken out -- I'm happy, then. Of course I've gotten fairly good at taking my own garbage out. :)

I think you assume that most women just want to take and don't want to give. I think it would depend upon the relationship. I've known plenty of women (and I'm one of them) that is pleased and fulfilled when those she loves are pleased and fulfilled. Could I be taken advantage of? Yah, and I have been. Yet, just because my generosity and loving nature was taken advantage of in my past relationship doesn't make me assume that all men are like my ex-husband. I don't understand why you think all women are the same.

I have no tally system. If I'm attracted to a man I want him, it's that simple. I'm not talking about physical attraction either -- If I'm attracted to his personality I'm a happy woman! If he's kind to me I'm happy. If he makes me laugh I'm happy. What does he need? Well, hopefully he wants sex, someone to laugh with, and someone to be kind to him. I'm fairly simple, really.

[_antishock8]

Do you think women objectifying men is really the result of being subordinated to the patriarchy?

I do to a degree. I think it's compartmentalized behavior, a sort of "I need to get mine." mentality that both sexes have, but this is the easiest avenue for women to work, or at least that it how it would seem to them from the Patriarchy paradigm. It's extremely disadvantageous to women as a whole when some women use their sexuality and mens' proclivity to patronize them (hoping for sexual favors) as a tool to get ahead.

Is there some kind of revenge motive that results from objectification.

I don't think it's a revenge motive. It's just a motive to accrue material. Remember people are myopic which results in materialism and selfishness.

Are you telling me that her parents, teachers, and everyone who raised her has always told her that she's only good for sex and because of that she's taking it out on her significant other?

No. I think there's a smallish percentage of girls and women who get the right message from their friends and families that they're human beings, not just sex kittens who need to make babies. Those women go on to be professionals and excel in their personal lives. They seek men of a like mind, or at the very least seek men who can keep up with them. That's a hard find, by the way. Most men don't have the energy to keep up with women. So the truism that a woman can't find a "good man" is closer to the mark than most men would be willing to admit. I suspect the reason why alpha males are so valued by women is because the alphas' energy, drive, and passion for what they're doing is extremely attractive to women, not just the lifestyle that usually results from that kind of behavior. Good women want to be engaged in life, and an alpha male is compatible with that female trait...