Apologetics is another way of saying 'convoluted testimony'

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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

Bee Eff wrote:You assume that Smith interpretted and relayed what he saw accurately. It is entirely possible that the information he received was assumed by Smith to be the USA while this is not the case. Prophets are simply men, and it is entirely possible for them to misinterpret what is told/shown them. The crux of your argument here seems to be location, your quotation here does not necessitate the USA.


Let's get this straight: you are prepared to doubt the accuracy of an account, written by Smith himself, supposedly a divinely selected prophet, of a series of visitations from heavenly beings? The answer seems to be yes, even though this account is part of a letter in which this supposed prophet is setting out to give a careful account of the basis of LDS history and belief.

Of course once you doubt one of his accounts, they are all equally doubtful, aren't they? That necessarily includes the First Vision, which is the founding experience of the whole LDS faith. According to you that might well be unreliable.

Evidently you also think that when a 19th century New Englander says "this country ... this continent ...ancient America ... America ...this country" he is not referring to North America.

I don't think you will find that these positions are very persuasive to your readers.
_Bee Eff
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:19 pm

Post by _Bee Eff »

Chap wrote:
Bee Eff wrote:You assume that Smith interpretted and relayed what he saw accurately. It is entirely possible that the information he received was assumed by Smith to be the USA while this is not the case. Prophets are simply men, and it is entirely possible for them to misinterpret what is told/shown them. The crux of your argument here seems to be location, your quotation here does not necessitate the USA.


Let's get this straight: you are prepared to doubt the accuracy of an account, written by Smith himself, supposedly a divinely selected prophet, of a series of visitations from heavenly beings? The answer seems to be yes, even though this account is part of a letter in which this supposed prophet is setting out to give a careful account of the basis of LDS history and belief.

Of course once you doubt one of his accounts, they are all equally doubtful, aren't they? That necessarily includes the First Vision, which is the founding experience of the whole LDS faith. According to you that might well be unreliable.

Evidently you also think that when a 19th century New Englander says "this country ... this continent ...ancient America ... America ...this country" he is not referring to North America.

I don't think you will find that these positions are very persuasive to your readers.

Location is irrelevant to the message Smith had to convey. I doubt Smith's assumption as to location. In the accounts I have heard, the angel states something along the lines of "this the American continent." This is a different statement than "this country." The words Smith used were his summary of what was told him. He was an uneducated young man. I severely doubt his knowledge of geography was such that he could convey accurately any statement concerning such. I do not believe that God gave Smith a heightened understanding of anything past the religious implications, thus anything outside a religious claim is questionable based on Smith's knowledge.

Do you often use ad hominem when debating? You did not respond to my statement here, you attacked my devotion to my religion.

I doubt the words of the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all other statements made by any individual aside from God and Christ (which means even the words placed on paper that God and Christ stated, if the one writing was not God or Christ, which I am unaware of any writing we have that was directly done by Them) in the same manner. I am a severe skeptic, I believe the message is important, but the messenger is often flawed. It is entirely possible that the angel that spoke to Smith made errors in his relaying of the information as well. I believe in a flawed humanity, and for an LDS, angels are merely a part of the human family either current, pre or post earthly mortal life. Until one reaches godhood one can make errors.

As to the Book of Mormon, it is an abridgement, it is a group of texts compiled and rewritten by an individual based on texts written by other individuals. The Book of Mormon is then translated and rewritten by Smith, there is a lot of room for error, regardless of its state as far as conveying the message it is supposed to. This does not threaten my belief.
A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. - B. F. Skinner
Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. - B. F. Skinner
The way positive reinforcement is carried out is more important than the amount. - B. F. Skinner
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Gadianton wrote: Then again, some apologists have already fattened their wallets or entrenched themselves in an apologetic career that they'll never be able to leave behind.


Really? Who would that be?
_Chap
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Post by _Chap »

Bee Eff wrote:Location is irrelevant to the message Smith had to convey. I doubt Smith's assumption as to location. In the accounts I have heard, the angel states something along the lines of "this the American continent." This is a different statement than "this country." The words Smith used were his summary of what was told him. He was an uneducated young man. I severely doubt his knowledge of geography was such that he could convey accurately any statement concerning such. I do not believe that God gave Smith a heightened understanding of anything past the religious implications, thus anything outside a religious claim is questionable based on Smith's knowledge.

Do you often use ad hominem when debating? You did not respond to my statement here, you attacked my devotion to my religion.

I doubt the words of the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all other statements made by any individual aside from God and Christ (which means even the words placed on paper that God and Christ stated, if the one writing was not God or Christ, which I am unaware of any writing we have that was directly done by Them) in the same manner. I am a severe skeptic, I believe the message is important, but the messenger is often flawed. It is entirely possible that the angel that spoke to Smith made errors in his relaying of the information as well. I believe in a flawed humanity, and for an LDS, angels are merely a part of the human family either current, pre or post earthly mortal life. Until one reaches godhood one can make errors.

As to the Book of Mormon, it is an abridgement, it is a group of texts compiled and rewritten by an individual based on texts written by other individuals. The Book of Mormon is then translated and rewritten by Smith, there is a lot of room for error, regardless of its state as far as conveying the message it is supposed to. This does not threaten my belief.


This posting admirably illustrates what this thread is about.

Of course BF cannot take refuge from the clear statements by Smith in the Wentworth letter by referring to alternative "accounts I have heard". The Wentworth letter is a public document that Smith himself published in his own periodical Times and Seasons. We have the precise text of what he wanted to tell us about the matters to which it refers. (Does it read like the letter of a semi-literate who did not know what country he was living in, by the way?)

On this board we are quite used to being told that prophets' accounts of pretty well everything are open to correction by modern-day LDS apologists if it suits their arguments. But I think this is the first time we have been told that angels are just as unreliable as prophets.

I am sure that this poster is devoted to his religion. But could it not be that he is just as mistaken about everything he believes in as (in his view) may be the 'prophet' Joseph Smith, and the angels who visited him? Me, I'd take an angel over BF any day, assuming that one paid me a visit.
_Bee Eff
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:19 pm

Post by _Bee Eff »

Chap wrote:
Bee Eff wrote:Location is irrelevant to the message Smith had to convey. I doubt Smith's assumption as to location. In the accounts I have heard, the angel states something along the lines of "this the American continent." This is a different statement than "this country." The words Smith used were his summary of what was told him. He was an uneducated young man. I severely doubt his knowledge of geography was such that he could convey accurately any statement concerning such. I do not believe that God gave Smith a heightened understanding of anything past the religious implications, thus anything outside a religious claim is questionable based on Smith's knowledge.

Do you often use ad hominem when debating? You did not respond to my statement here, you attacked my devotion to my religion.

I doubt the words of the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all other statements made by any individual aside from God and Christ (which means even the words placed on paper that God and Christ stated, if the one writing was not God or Christ, which I am unaware of any writing we have that was directly done by Them) in the same manner. I am a severe skeptic, I believe the message is important, but the messenger is often flawed. It is entirely possible that the angel that spoke to Smith made errors in his relaying of the information as well. I believe in a flawed humanity, and for an LDS, angels are merely a part of the human family either current, pre or post earthly mortal life. Until one reaches godhood one can make errors.

As to the Book of Mormon, it is an abridgement, it is a group of texts compiled and rewritten by an individual based on texts written by other individuals. The Book of Mormon is then translated and rewritten by Smith, there is a lot of room for error, regardless of its state as far as conveying the message it is supposed to. This does not threaten my belief.


This posting admirably illustrates what this thread is about.

Of course BF cannot take refuge from the clear statements by Smith in the Wentworth letter by referring to alternative "accounts I have heard". The Wentworth letter is a public document that Smith himself published in his own periodical Times and Seasons. We have the precise text of what he wanted to tell us about the matters to which it refers. (Does it read like the letter of a semi-literate who did not know what country he was living in, by the way?)

On this board we are quite used to being told that prophets' accounts of pretty well everything are open to correction by modern-day LDS apologists if it suits their arguments. But I think this is the first time we have been told that angels are just as unreliable as prophets.

I am sure that this poster is devoted to his religion. But could it not be that he is just as mistaken about everything he believes in as (in his view) may be the 'prophet' Joseph Smith, and the angels who visited him? Me, I'd take an angel over BF any day, assuming that one paid me a visit.

Can you say ad hominem?

Also, the word country does not show up in the JS-H save when he is describing what is occurring as far as his view of a "religious revival". I am sorry, but there is an inconsistency between the Wentworth letter and his other acounts on this. If he was a prophet the only explanation is that he did not have an adequate understanding of the geography.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A failure is not always a mistake, it may simply be the best one can do under the circumstances. The real mistake is to stop trying. - B. F. Skinner
Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. - B. F. Skinner
The way positive reinforcement is carried out is more important than the amount. - B. F. Skinner
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Bee Eff wrote:
Chap wrote:
Bee Eff wrote:You assume that Smith interpretted and relayed what he saw accurately. It is entirely possible that the information he received was assumed by Smith to be the USA while this is not the case. Prophets are simply men, and it is entirely possible for them to misinterpret what is told/shown them. The crux of your argument here seems to be location, your quotation here does not necessitate the USA.


Let's get this straight: you are prepared to doubt the accuracy of an account, written by Smith himself, supposedly a divinely selected prophet, of a series of visitations from heavenly beings? The answer seems to be yes, even though this account is part of a letter in which this supposed prophet is setting out to give a careful account of the basis of LDS history and belief.

Of course once you doubt one of his accounts, they are all equally doubtful, aren't they? That necessarily includes the First Vision, which is the founding experience of the whole LDS faith. According to you that might well be unreliable.

Evidently you also think that when a 19th century New Englander says "this country ... this continent ...ancient America ... America ...this country" he is not referring to North America.

I don't think you will find that these positions are very persuasive to your readers.

Location is irrelevant to the message Smith had to convey. I doubt Smith's assumption as to location. In the accounts I have heard, the angel states something along the lines of "this the American continent." This is a different statement than "this country." The words Smith used were his summary of what was told him. He was an uneducated young man. I severely doubt his knowledge of geography was such that he could convey accurately any statement concerning such. I do not believe that God gave Smith a heightened understanding of anything past the religious implications, thus anything outside a religious claim is questionable based on Smith's knowledge.

Do you often use ad hominem when debating? You did not respond to my statement here, you attacked my devotion to my religion.

I doubt the words of the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all other statements made by any individual aside from God and Christ (which means even the words placed on paper that God and Christ stated, if the one writing was not God or Christ, which I am unaware of any writing we have that was directly done by Them) in the same manner. I am a severe skeptic, I believe the message is important, but the messenger is often flawed. It is entirely possible that the angel that spoke to Smith made errors in his relaying of the information as well. I believe in a flawed humanity, and for an LDS, angels are merely a part of the human family either current, pre or post earthly mortal life. Until one reaches godhood one can make errors.

As to the Book of Mormon, it is an abridgement, it is a group of texts compiled and rewritten by an individual based on texts written by other individuals. The Book of Mormon is then translated and rewritten by Smith, there is a lot of room for error, regardless of its state as far as conveying the message it is supposed to. This does not threaten my belief.


Although ad hominems are common on this Board, Chap's post doesn't really have much of one. Plus, how can he commit an ad hominem against an anonymous poster? What is your real name?

Chap's point about the historic references to the American continent by the Prophet Joseph Smith are simply overwhelming. I would be curious if you have a single reference to any general authority's talk or statement which would indicate a belief in a limited geographic theory, or a location of the Hill Cumorah in a location other than in New York, or a location for the final Nephite-Lamanite battle in a location other than New York. I am aware of a singular comment somewhere by Elder Oaks to the effect that he wouldn't rule out the limited geographic theory, but this one comment pales in comparison to the many many statements of general authorities to the direct contrary.

Chap makes his point to needle you. He needles you with your improper and unsupportable adherence to the limited geographic theory. Chap does not believe for a second in anything having to do with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. He probably continues to be a member of the Church but posts attacks anonymously. But, the reason you appear to be twisting in the wind here, even to a believer such as myself, is that your position about Joseph Smith maybe being wrong, or not understanding, is plainly and simply wrong itself. Joseph Smith was rarely in error on doctrinal or scriptural matters.

Just a thought.
_EAllusion
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Post by _EAllusion »

Aw man. Not going to answer the other part of my question? Oh well. I don't think you are going to cogently differentiate between, "God exists and is speaking to me" with "Aliens exist and they abducted me" within the structure of your argument. I picked those two examples in anticipation of you saying yes and no respectively. Then I could talk some more about how trivially we could make the former like the latter. You robbed me of my glory by only answering the first half. :p
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