krose wrote:This is what makes "Pascal's Wager" so ridiculous. Why not choose to believe in order to hedge your bets? Uh, no.
I may want to believe in an after-life and a loving, eternal father figure. As a matter of fact, I DO want to. But I can't make myself believe. There is just no way I can now make myself "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain," so to speak.
I prefer to meet the man behind the curtain. He's much more impressive then the talking face.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I don't think that people "choose to believe" in general. I think our beliefs are formed in a complex (and unreliable) method that includes bias as well as evidentiary information.
in my opinion, when people talk about choosing to believe, what they really mean is that there is significant evidence against belief X, but due to issues other than empirical evidence, the person decides to ignore the significant evidence against belief X in order to preserve the belief.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:in my opinion, when people talk about choosing to believe, what they really mean is that there is significant evidence against belief X, but due to issues other than empirical evidence, the person decides to ignore the significant evidence against belief X in order to preserve the belief.
What are those issues? There are plenty of things I wish were true which I know are not (I'm not a genius, I'm not as good looking as Steuss, I'm not wealthy, and I'm not very good at first person shooter video-games). Sometimes I wish the Deists or maybe the Buddists were right instead of Mormons.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
The Nehor wrote: Wanting to believe in God and the corresponding belief in a higher law is a choice.
I would say that's true, Nehor. You may want to believe in God and that is a choice made (I've done that myself!) although wanting to believe something is true does not in fact make it something you can choose to believe in.
I can choose to try really, really, really hard to believe in the Loch Ness Monster. I can do research, look at photos, read accounts, watch (silly) programs on t.v concerning the evidence. I may squint my eyes tight, hold my breath, do jumping jacks, meditate, sleep with a Loch Ness Monster plush doll, create a haiku in honor of Nessie to repeat a few times a day.... yet, I can't choose to actually accept that the Loch Ness Monster lives in the murky depths...
to believe in something is to think of it with your sub-conscious mind and your conscious mind and both parts agreeing with it, to fool yourself to believe something you want to believe is to think of it with your conscious mind so many times so that you can hopefully trick your sub-conscious mind. Basically the only part of it you really get to choose is the part where you start thinking about it.
This is question is it's own subdiscipline in philosophy. More accurately, the question of whether beliefs are volitional is its own subdiscipline. I come down on the side of doxastic involunteerism. I don't think people choose their beliefs. I think our cognitive faculties force beliefs without volition. I do think people can make choices to make themselves likely to form or not form certain beliefs. For instance, they can intentionally avoid arguments critical of a position and only listen to things that reinforce it.
I think the biggest flaw in Pascal's Wager is that their are an infinite set of beliefs to choose from that can be attached to the ideal consequence calculus. What if not believing in God will get you into heaven and believing will get you into hell? I guess you can't take the chance. Better disbelieve.
I would suggest that faith and belief are not necessarily the same. Faith is given by God and is basically trusting that Christ is who He says He is and does what He says He does. Elements of faith are knowledge, belief, and trust; knowledge-understanding the object of faith, belief- recognizing the personal value of the object of faith, and trust- committing one's life to the object of faith.
krose wrote:This is what makes "Pascal's Wager" so ridiculous. Why not choose to believe in order to hedge your bets? Uh, no.
I may want to believe in an after-life and a loving, eternal father figure. As a matter of fact, I DO want to. But I can't make myself believe. There is just no way I can now make myself "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain," so to speak.
I prefer to meet the man behind the curtain. He's much more impressive then the talking face.
Problem is that within Mormonism (and religion for that matter) theres just another curtain. You duck behind the second curtain and theres a cardboard sign that says "god Is Dead...move along peasant".
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Mercury wrote:Problem is that within Mormonism (and religion for that matter) theres just another curtain. You duck behind the second curtain and theres a cardboard sign that says "god Is Dead...move along peasant".
How does an Immortal die?
I think God is still alive. They've never found the body ;)
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO