Stop the Nightmares

[_The Nehor]

Oh yes, I am a troll. By all means, disregard everything I post here.

Done.

[Guest]

I thought it would be a good idea to look at what the petition (to the UK Parliament) in the OP actually says:

The current laws on harassment are not sufficient to protect children from the sort of bullying that religious groups use every day to coerce children into obedience and belief. Threatening an adult with eternal torture may be distasteful but is not likely to result in psychological damage. This is not the case with children. The effects of religious bullying can be long-term and serious, from nightmares and depression to anxiety disorders and even suicide.

The fact that threats of damnation, torture and other extreme punishment are used routinely is clear evidence that existing laws are insufficient. We call on the Prime Minister to clarify the existing harassment laws by adding clauses outlawing any form of threat, supernatural or otherwise, aimed at children; and to provide guidance to the police and other authorities on the enforcement of these laws.

If I did think there was a hell, I would probably want to tell my children about it. But I don't believe in hell, so I wouldn't want to teach children about it, and I would like to take any reasonable and practicable steps to stop children being frightened by people who do believe in such things. My problem is that I think there are probably very few reasonable and practicable steps that would have that effect, and I think legislation is not likely to be among them.

I doubt very much whether new clauses like the ones asked for in the petition, specifically referring to frightening children with religion-based threats, could be made to function so as to result in convictions in common-law jurisdictions like the UK or the USA, especially as relates to what goes on in the privacy of people's homes. The problems of evidence and definition would be immense, even if we thought it desirable to make and attempt to enforce laws about what may or not be said by parents to children in the home circle.

Education in critical thinking, and popular writing and broadcasting à la Dawkins may well help in liberating a few minds from such ideas. I really don't think the law will ever be able to do much in that regard.

[_Scottie]

I'm starting to think troll.

Who is the "we all"?

Oh yes, I am a troll. By all means, disregard everything I post here.

Perhaps you could explain how you could post such an incredibly asinine and ridiculous statement such as "we all know there is no hell"????

It certainly appears that you are not even interested in having a discussion. You're just in it for the shock value and to get people riled up.

Other things we all "know"...

There is no God.
If there was a Jesus, he was just a man.
The Holy Ghost doesn't direct us.
Allah is a figment of the imagination.

Oh, wait....actually a good many billions of people believe these things to be true. Oh, but Kemp has decreed these are all false, therefore they MUST be.

[_asbestosman]

To be extra clear to Chris and avoid future straw man arguments, my position is not just that hell isn't real (we all know it is not) it is that what is taught to children about this mythical place of punishment is horrifying, bullying, traumatic, and emotionally abusive.

Teaching children about hell is not always horrifying, bullying, traumatic, or emotionally abusive any more than teaching children about the dangers of fire is abusive (even though all agree that fire danger exists). Now granted, teaching of hell probably can be abusive just like telling kids explicit details of a molesting Santa would be. That said, I don't think teaching kids about hell is inherently abusive. I wasn't particularly worried about hell as a kid even though I knew something about it. I was more worried about whether Santa would bring me presents.

[_asbestosman]

Other things we all "know"...

Human intelligence is a figment of our imaginations.

[_Paul Kemp]

I'm starting to think troll.

Who is the "we all"?

Oh yes, I am a troll. By all means, disregard everything I post here.

Perhaps you could explain how you could post such an incredibly asinine and ridiculous statement such as "we all know there is no hell"????

It certainly appears that you are not even interested in having a discussion. You're just in it for the shock value and to get people riled up.

Other things we all "know"...

There is no God.
If there was a Jesus, he was just a man.
The Holy Ghost doesn't direct us.
Allah is a figment of the imagination.

Oh, wait....actually a good many billions of people believe these things to be true. Oh, but Kemp has decreed these are all false, therefore they MUST be.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without it, my friend.

And I take no stock in what a "good many billions" of people profess to believe.

[_Scottie]

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without it, my friend.

So, we are now speaking strictly in facts? Beliefs hold no weight in this discussion?

And I take no stock in what a "good many billions" of people profess to believe.

You may take no stock in those beliefs, but that really doesn't matter. Who assigned you judge, jury and executioner on which beliefs are valid and which are not?

This petition appears to be doing just that. Minority X (of which Kemp is a part of) does not believe in belief Y (hell in this case), and wants majority Z who DOES believe in belief Y to stop teaching it under penalty of law.

Kemp, what would you like the penalty to be if someone chooses to teach their children about hell?

[_Scottie]

Just to play devil's advocate here, lets take the example of the FLDS.

FLDS beliefs are that young women should be married as plural wives to old men.

Many of us find this teaching utterly disgusting, and would quite possibly place it in the realm of child abuse.

Why do you suppose this is? Simply because the teaching is of a very small religion and more "out there" than traditional Christian beliefs? What if this teaching were a part of a very large religion? Would we dare touch it?

[_KimberlyAnn]

While I think it's wrong to tell children they may go to hell, I can't at all agree that it should be illegal. I don't necessarily think it's bad parenting for very religious folks to warn their children about hell--I'm sure they believe they're doing what's right, and I don't think it's overly traumatizing for most kids. At least it wasn't for me.

There are lots of things parents do that aren't the best for their kids, but that aren't necessarily traumatizing.

I don't think it's best for parents to tell children Santa may not bring them presents if they're bad. My children know Santa loves them for who they are, even if they're naughty, and will bring them presents regardless. But is it BAD parenting to tell kids they have to be good to get Christmas gifts? Probably not.

I also don't think it's best for babies to be fed infant formula. I breastfed all my babies, but don't think it's poor parenting for babies to be given baby formula from bottles.

Heck, I think it's wrong to tote babies around in those stupid baby buckets, but I'm not about to go around preaching to parents who don't carry their babies in their arms. The physical closeness and comfort of being carried in a parent's arms that is denied a child constantly toted in a baby bucket is likely more damaging to them than later being told there is a hell. Children who love and trust their parents from the start are unlikely to be traumatized by such messages, especially if those messages are given in love. Even if those messages are wrong. Just my opinion.

It's not my job, though, to enforce my brand of parenting on others. It's probably best to let parents determine, as much as possible, the proper way to raise their own children. I trust most parents with that job far more than I trust the government!

KA

[_Paul Kemp]

So, we are now speaking strictly in facts? Beliefs hold no weight in this discussion?

Fictional beliefs hold no weight in this discussion. Look, If you want to scare the crap out of your kids with descriptions of the underworld and torment them with threats and false realities, emotional abuse, you better pony up some facts or change your approach.

You may take no stock in those beliefs, but that really doesn't matter. Who assigned you judge, jury and executioner on which beliefs are valid and which are not?

Waaaaaa. Believe whatever sort of nonsense you want, waste your life and your money on it. I don't care. But stop abusing your children. Stop polluting their developing minds with sinister threats about a place that doesn't exist.

I'm actually fairly confident that one day we will see legislation like this in the US. Think about the type of abuse kids were subject to in the 50's compared to what is allowed today. You don't have the right to physically beat the hell out of your kid, and you don't have the right to mentally beat the hell out of them either.

Kemp, what would you like the penalty to be if someone chooses to teach their children about hell?

I don't know. I'm not judge, jury, and executioner.