An evening with Dr. Gee

[_Trevor]

This is a question for Kevin, Who Knows, CK, and anyone else who has studied Book of Abraham as a hobby. Have any of you guys heard of this theory about the "large scroll" and it being burned in a Chicago fire? This is the first I have heard about it, but I haven't really studied this subject at any depth.

I want to know when, where, and among whom the papyri were divided.

[_Trevor]

This is a fantastic example of why when intellectuals finally get their hands on real power, economies collapse and large numbers of people end up in camps.

Or, you can elect a pseudo-hick, frat-boy moron the president of the United States. Theory tried and proven effective.

[_antishock8]

This is a fantastic example of why when intellectuals finally get their hands on real power, economies collapse and large numbers of people end up in camps.

Or, you can elect a pseudo-hick, frat-boy moron the president of the United States. Theory tried and proven effective.

Omg. QFA.

[_Jason Bourne]

This is a question for Kevin, Who Knows, CK, and anyone else who has studied Book of Abraham as a hobby. Have any of you guys heard of this theory about the "large scroll" and it being burned in a Chicago fire? This is the first I have heard about it, but I haven't really studied this subject at any depth.

This is not an area I am versed in at all really. But I have heard this before and in fact I think it is in Gees little book on the Book of Abraham that FARMS has published for a few years.


Now my I ask a dumb question. What is KEP?

[_TrashcanMan79]

What is KEP?

Kirtland Egyptian Papers

[_Chap]

I wanted to add one more comment, related to what I read earlier.

Joseph Smith had possession of all of the scrolls we are talking about, both the ones the church has now, as well as any other scrolls that might once have existed, such as the mythical "longer scroll" which is claimed to have burned up in the fire.

The authors of the KEP had all of the scrolls available. The woodcutter who engraved the masters for the facsimiles had the originals to look at and base their cuts on, etc. All of these people had direct, physical access to the collection of papyrus as it was delivered to Joseph Smith from Michael Chandler.

The $64 question is then this. If Joseph Smith and the others had direct, physical possession of all of the scrolls, why choose the "wrong" scroll, ie: the one we have possession of right now, to base all of the written and drawn material on? Why attach symbols from the Breathing Permit of Hor to verses from the Book of Abraham, when the actual Book of Abraham scroll was sitting right there on their desk? Why engrave the vignette from the Breathing Permit of Hor for inclusion in the Book of Abraham when the "real" Book of Abraham scroll, with the image "at the commencement of this record" was sitting right there? Why engrave the hypocephalus image and claim it to be part of the Book of Abraham, when the "real" Book of Abraham scroll was physicall in their hands, on their desk, etc.?

The arguments justifying why all of the men who had anything to do with the production of the Book of Abraham and the facsimiles, and the KEP, including (most importantly) Joseph Smith himself, would choose to use the "wrong" scrolls for all of their subsequent efforts, are mind-bogglingly hard to believe. There's really no good reason to believe them, frankly. They're unconvincing, implausible, and highly unlikely.

I think that is the killer point. Joseph Smith and his associates make it extremely clear (as set out above) that they think the Book of Abraham text is there in the section of papyrus that we possess today. But it isn't (at least not in any sense perceptible to those who can only translate Egyptian without benefit of divine inspiration).

If there is any argument that gets the apologists off that particular hook, I cannot recall it, and would welcome a succinct statement of it on this thread.

[_EAllusion]

This is a fantastic example of why when intellectuals finally get their hands on real power, economies collapse and large numbers of people end up in camps.

Intellectuals like Jefferson, Madison, Jay, Hamilton, etc. etc.

The strain of anti-intellectual populism that seems to have infected so much of the modern conservative coalition is really regrettable. From William F. Buckley to Sean Hannity in a generation.

Of course, you could argue that intellectuals who favor a limited scope of government that doesn't involve major economic or social regulation don't have "real power," even though they do, but then the issue isn't with intellectuals at all. It's with anyone who those who favor strong governmental control. If you assert that necessarily makes someone an intellectual, that's a question-begging argument through and through. Then all you are really saying is that when people who want to the government to closely manage economies and control the decisions of the people get the power to do so, economies collapse and people end up in camps. And to be frank, that's a fairly trite assertion to be making that is completely robbed of the attempt to malign "intellectuals."

[_Gadianton]

There were some other neat correlations between Horos’s role and the things happening in the Book of Abraham, but I don’t think I could recount them with any kind of accuracy

Then again, you aren't Dr. Shades. I have this feeling there will never be a superior set of notes available for this presentation, too bad MAD is so deeply filled with hate that they won't ever be able to recognize, let alone borrow from Shades's significant contribution to their own community.

I got a chuckle out of the fact that MAD was so proud to announce their set of notes from this important presentation, and then after reading what Dr. Shades came up with, their notes basically have nothing.

[_CaliforniaKid]

This is a question for Kevin, Who Knows, CK, and anyone else who has studied Book of Abraham as a hobby. Have any of you guys heard of this theory about the "large scroll" and it being burned in a Chicago fire? This is the first I have heard about it, but I haven't really studied this subject at any depth.

I want to know when, where, and among whom the papyri were divided.

If I'm not mistaken, the gentleman to whom the papyri were sold by Charles Bidamon (Emma's second husband) bequeathed part of them to the Wood Museum but hung on to the rest, which were inherited by his housekeeper and later acquired by another museum. I'm working from memory, so the details may be off, but that's the gist of it.

[_Dr. Shades]

Dear Everyone:

To all those who have complimented me or otherwised praised my notes--even those of you at MA&D--I offer my sincerest gratitude and a hearty "thank you!" Y'all's kind words have made my day many times over. (I'm not worthy!)

To all those who have thanked me for them, I rejoin with a hearty "you're welcome!"

I went to go check this out, but apparently the MADerators felt that the participants on that board would be best served by not knowing about Shades' notes at all.

Yeah, mind-boggling, isn't it? I don't recall disparaging either Dr. Gee or anything he said anywhere in my write-up. I think I only reported what he said without any commentary of my own other than to note where my memory might be faulty.

If there's nothing "anti" in my notes themselves--as the folks at MA&D themselves seem to admit--then the only conclusion we can reach is that the mere venue where my notes appeared is what is causing them to give them the "thumbs-down." Either that, or the fact that yours truly was the one who put pen to paper as opposed to anyone else.

This might be the best example of note taking I've ever seen in my life.

And a very special "thank you" for that!

I have this feeling there will never be a superior set of notes available for this presentation, too bad MAD is so deeply filled with hate that they won't ever be able to recognize, let alone borrow from Shades's significant contribution to their own community.

I think this is a naked example of personalities trumping information. Their priorities are hereby laid bare.

I got a chuckle out of the fact that MAD was so proud to announce their set of notes from this important presentation, and then after reading what Dr. Shades came up with, their notes basically have nothing.

I, too, find this nigh unto unfathomable. Both the FAIR blog and the brief at MormonTimes.com only touch on general themes and not on anything in specific. It's the specifics that I thought would be valuable to rank-and-file Mormons.

This is made all the more curious by the fact that I didn't see any familiar faces there at all. I know a few people from MA&D, but I didn't see any of them. This event was very well-attended, too. Chairs filled up the entire space and people filled up all the chairs, so it's not like no one took notice.

Most venues such as FAIR conferences and the pages of FARMS Review appear to be geared to a large degree to those already in-the-know. This was a unique opportunity to hear the premiere Book of Abraham apologist speak on this topic to the rank-and-file, completely free of charge and open to the public. Why it didn't earn more online coverage by and for believing Mormons is surprising to me.

But then again, maybe that's merely symptomatic of the >50% that "just don't care."