What happened to LDS apologist Doug Marshall?

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_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

In 1975 the Church reversed its position on immigrations and baptisms in the United States and dropped from its list of questions of immigrants whether they were legal or not. One could not be baptized prior to 1975 if one were not a legal immigrant.

Today, the Church gives English lessons and financial aid to persons their bishops know full well are illegal immigrants. I am such a bishop. The bishop who shares my building and runs a Spanish ward is such a bishop. We are encouraged in leadership meetings to do so, and are told to not factor in immigration status into any equation. My stake several years ago called an illegal alien to be a branch president. The Church sends illegal aliens on missions within the United States. I have one such sister in my ward. The Church does so knowingly, carefully avoiding calling such persons on missions which would require them to cross international boundaries.


How do you think this factors in with keeping the laws of the land? The bolded portion essentially neutralizes this policy with respect to left and right wing. Might actually be more right wing as it is a "don't ask don't tell" sort of policy.

Does the Republican Party contain platform elements antithetical to the Church?

It was a Republican-dominated Congress that imposed test oaths on Mormons, disenfranchised first women voters in Utah, and then Mormon voters in Utah. It was a Republican Senator and Republican Senate lawyer who demanded that President J F Smith and others divulge elements of the endowment to a Senate committee presided over by a Republican. The Republican party called for the dismembership of the Church in the 1850s.


Non sequitur. We are talking about today.

Examples of where the 2004 Republican Platform deviates from teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church.

The party supports the death penalty for crimes. The only example of an acceptable death penalty in the scriptures comes from a religious society whose leader is a priest or prophet, and only where there are at least two witnesses. The U.S. and various states put people to death on the strength of one witness.


That there can and should be capital punishment is LDS doctrine. No prophet or priest is mentioned as being required. Genesis 9:6, 2 Nephi 9:35. Notice also the separation of church and state for the Alma examples. The high priest had no authority to execute (pun intended) these laws and had to bring such cases to the chief judge.

The party supports jail time for incidental drug use. Nowhere do the scriptures support such a theory and, indeed, we read about agency instead. Sure, we read about people hurting each other and being made to pay, but not for drug abuse. Proverbs speaks repeatedly about the drunkard, but never about criminality.


Okay so there is no deviation from doctrine here simply based on your own statements as far as I can tell.

The party's platform has a clause which would force government agencies to impose the Ten Commandments upon citizens. The scriptures, however, speak about agency in the context of commandment keeping.


CFR. There is only one explicit reference to the Ten Commandments in the 2004 platform.

The party's platform speaks out against "frivolous gun lawsuits." However, the Old Testament speaks a lot about property rights, being made to pay for one's negligence. If you negligently put a gun in somebody's hands, you should pay.


But are these lawsuits mentioned actually the result of negligence or is it really adefense against an agenda to take away agency?

The party's platform says: "Total and complete destruction of terrorism is needed." However, the scriptures condone only defensive war, and I am not aware of a single example of a defensive war in the scriptures conducted entirely on foreign soil.


The scriptures say that unto those where much is given, much is required. The D&C gives us the obligation to defend our friends. who are our friends and by extension, who are our neighbors? GBH himself, in a Christmas address prior to the 2003 resumption of the Iraq war essentially gave his blessing.

The party's platform says that it supports "faith-based welfare grants." This is tantamount to a national religion. Whose "faith" should the government get involved with? Joseph Smith was quite plain in his teachings about the agency of man and freedom from government compulsion. Why should my taxes be confiscated to give to a Episcopalian social system?


Indeed. However, your taxes were being confiscated anyway. The Republicans merely looked to broaden their distribution. A step in the right direction.

Having said all that, the Democrats themselves have serious problems with their platform and the scriptures. Abortion is the key example.


Well, so far I see no doctrinal conflicts at all with the Republican platform and as you seem to agree already there are significant and serious conflicts with the Democrat platform (I consider socialism to be the worse sin, the potential removal of agency from billions of people).

I am a libertarian, but I see the Republican party as the party of compulsion; the Democratic party as the party of libertines.


I can only agree with the latter so far, though I would agree that many individual Republicans have lost their way out of fear of offended what they perceive is their constituency. I am not a Republican by the way.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Paul Kemp
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Post by _Paul Kemp »

rcrocket wrote:
bcspace wrote:
Some parts perhaps. But there are parts of the republican platform that run coutner to LDS doctrine as well.


I'll bet you can't list one.


Does the Church inquire about the legal status of a potential baptism?


In 1975 the Church reversed its position on immigrations and baptisms in the United States and dropped from its list of questions of immigrants whether they were legal or not. One could not be baptized prior to 1975 if one were not a legal immigrant.

Today, the Church gives English lessons and financial aid to persons their bishops know full well are illegal immigrants. I am such a bishop. The bishop who shares my building and runs a Spanish ward is such a bishop. We are encouraged in leadership meetings to do so, and are told to not factor in immigration status into any equation. My stake several years ago called an illegal alien to be a branch president. The Church sends illegal aliens on missions within the United States. I have one such sister in my ward. The Church does so knowingly, carefully avoiding calling such persons on missions which would require them to cross international boundaries.

Does the Republican Party contain platform elements antithetical to the Church?

It was a Republican-dominated Congress that imposed test oaths on Mormons, disenfranchised first women voters in Utah, and then Mormon voters in Utah. It was a Republican Senator and Republican Senate lawyer who demanded that President J F Smith and others divulge elements of the endowment to a Senate committee presided over by a Republican. The Republican party called for the dismembership of the Church in the 1850s.

Examples of where the 2004 Republican Platform deviates from teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church.

The party supports the death penalty for crimes. The only example of an acceptable death penalty in the scriptures comes from a religious society whose leader is a priest or prophet, and only where there are at least two witnesses. The U.S. and various states put people to death on the strength of one witness.

The party supports jail time for incidental drug use. Nowhere do the scriptures support such a theory and, indeed, we read about agency instead. Sure, we read about people hurting each other and being made to pay, but not for drug abuse. Proverbs speaks repeatedly about the drunkard, but never about criminality.

The party's platform has a clause which would force government agencies to impose the Ten Commandments upon citizens. The scriptures, however, speak about agency in the context of commandment keeping.

The party's platform speaks out against "frivolous gun lawsuits." However, the Old Testament speaks a lot about property rights, being made to pay for one's negligence. If you negligently put a gun in somebody's hands, you should pay.

The party's platform says: "Total and complete destruction of terrorism is needed." However, the scriptures condone only defensive war, and I am not aware of a single example of a defensive war in the scriptures conducted entirely on foreign soil.

The party's platform says that it supports "faith-based welfare grants." This is tantamount to a national religion. Whose "faith" should the government get involved with? Joseph Smith was quite plain in his teachings about the agency of man and freedom from government compulsion. Why should my taxes be confiscated to give to a Episcopalian social system?


Having said all that, the Democrats themselves have serious problems with their platform and the scriptures. Abortion is the key example.

I am a libertarian, but I see the Republican party as the party of compulsion; the Democratic party as the party of libertines.


Great post, bishop.
We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H.L Mencken
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Is it not delicious irony the way the majority of Republicans view the Mormon faith?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Is it not delicious irony the way the majority of Republicans view the Mormon faith?


It's not suprising how democrats shun the LDS faith when they hear of it's conservative doctrines. Practically the only way to get them to join is to lie about our doctrine and unfortunately, some LDS do it.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

The church claims that it is not republican or democrat.


BCSpace should be excommunicated for trying to stipulate political positions as necessary for salvation, for publically promoting idiosyncratic doctrinal notions and foisting on us a litmus test for doctrine, and for declaring without authority that a public official in good standing should be excommunicated.


Good point.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

The church claims that it is not republican or democrat.

BCSpace should be excommunicated for trying to stipulate political positions as necessary for salvation, for publically promoting idiosyncratic doctrinal notions and foisting on us a litmus test for doctrine, and for declaring without authority that a public official in good standing should be excommunicated.


BCSpace has done no such thing. He does not advocate a litmus test based on voting or political party, rather he simply points out the litmus test, already in place, that determines belief. Politics is simply evidence of belief or lack thereof.

I'm actually also advocating consistency here. If there can be excommunications among the September Six, then why not ex Harry Reid who, on the same day Elder Ballard(?) was in Washington DC in support of a marriage amendment, was excoriating anyone who favored it thus putting the Church in his line of fire.

Reid has committed a far greater sin than any of the September Six did and yet he remains untouched. I disagree with this condition.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
The church claims that it is not republican or democrat.

BCSpace should be excommunicated for trying to stipulate political positions as necessary for salvation, for publically promoting idiosyncratic doctrinal notions and foisting on us a litmus test for doctrine, and for declaring without authority that a public official in good standing should be excommunicated.


BCSpace has done no such thing. He does not advocate a litmus test based on voting or political party, rather he simply points out the litmus test, already in place, that determines belief. Politics is simply evidence of belief or lack thereof.

Such BS.

Reid has committed a far greater sin than any of the September Six did and yet he remains untouched.

Turn your sorry self into church authorities.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Turn your sorry self into church authorities.


I notice no one actually disagreeing with the fact that left wing politics is contrary to LDS doctrine. In fact, even the one who failed in his attempt to show that the 2004 Republican platform had some conflicting planks agrees with me.

Now if these things are contrary to LDS doctrine, how much of a believer can a political liberal be? Not much.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

bcspace wrote:
The fact of the matter is that left-wing politics is completely incompatible with LDS doctrine so this is not suprising.

Yeah, like that pesky little thing called "free agency".


One can't have socialism without the removal of agency. Steeping oneself in sin often causes one to lose their agency as well as they become enslaved and can't get out.


God but you are a simpleton.

Anything that does not hew the conservative party line is socialism.

What precisely is that substance in your cranium that passes for a brain?

Edited to ad: To others, I apologize for resort to ad homenin. But sometimes you just gotta call a spade (or a dimwit) a spade (or dimwit).
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
Turn your sorry self into church authorities.


I notice no one actually disagreeing with the fact that left wing politics is contrary to LDS doctrine. .

What exactly is contrary?
Contrary to Utah culture and politics maybe. But if that's the gospel then what a joke (perhaps it is a joke).


I'll tell ya some things contrary.
Lying to make war and thereby killing thousands of innocents,
greed,
bigotry and racism,
denial of free agency and human rights,
torture


Now what is your bone to pick? Is this all about gays? Is it about the sacred right to pollute unfettered in the name of profit? What?
I don't get it really.

How one can read Talmage's "Jesus the Christ" and then vote for Bush is beyond me. Oil and Water--snake oil and water.


This right wing jingoism and John Bircherism that has infiltrated the church is so far in spirit from the New Testament that it is mind boggling.
I picture a new right wing Jesus. A gun toting, militeristic, nascar racin' cowboy Jesus, a supply-side Jesus, who blames poverty on the poor and has only recently taken off the white sheets of the clan. This is a false Jesus if there ever was one,...but quite right wing in spirit.

The new Jesus isn't about love and atonement but about profit, flag waving jingoism, xenophobia, egotism, conformity and gay bashing.

I guess, Harry Reid is just too in love with the old Jesus--the one who fed the poor, forgave the sinners and taught meekness.

Lucky I don't have to deal with the farce of the hardened right-wing "church within the church".
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
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