The Unreasonableness of Atheism

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_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

dartagan wrote:Again nobody here has dealt with the fact that our universe is governed by numerous laws whose only common value is that they are geared to accomodate human life. This is just dumb luck?

...and you were just trying to push on us the idea that the multi-verse was something atheists made up...? And then you come up with this...?

If you actually accept the anthropic principle for what it is, then it explains why we happen to be in the universe apparently 'fine tuned' to the existence of something like 'us'. It's because we are here talking about it. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be.

It's like going up to a lottery winner and saying: "Well - how could YOU have won it?! Look at the odds against you!!".
What do they care - they've got the check in their hand...!
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

As far as the point of atheists not being 'that interested' and or not particularly 'sophisticated' when it comes to 'waxing philosophical', you might wanna pay a visit here Dart:

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/index.php

Whole rooms set aside for Philosophy, Existence of God(s), Moral Foundations etc. With plenty of people participating. Not just theist vs. atheist, but atheist vs. atheist...

I'd be careful about making sweeping statements about atheists - using a pro-dominantly ex-Mormon site as your case study.
...are you really observing just 'atheists'? Or are you observing people who, on the whole, have past experience with a relatively 'fundamentalist' religion?
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Well, so far we know that dart thinks atheists are boring, unsophisticated, and less morally developed than believers (due to the fact that atheists have no incentive for moral improvement). Any other pejoratives you want to add to an entire group of people, dart?

And anyone know of an adjective to describe someone who thinks other people are boring and unsophisticated if they don't happen to share that person's interests?

(by the way, you brought up einstein earlier - I'll bump the thread for you because you never answered my last question, where you obtained the deliberately manipulated einstein quote)

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... c&start=84

(for some reason it won't let me post a reply to it, so just use the link above - I'll be gone for a little while, but will get back to it later if you choose to answer my question)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Wow, I see the usual suspects came out of the woodworks once this topic was raised again...

See moniker?

lol

Well, so far we know that dart thinks atheists are boring, unsophisticated, and less morally developed than believers (due to the fact that atheists have no incentive for moral improvement). Any other pejoratives you want to add to an entire group of people, dart?

I see you're not back to lies beastie? I never said youw ere less morally developed. And where did I say unsophisticated? You like to invent stuff like this because you cannot argue the points. You prefer the mopologist way out by attacking me using straw men. Kinda like, "we already know Kevin is an anti whose agenda is to see the Church destroyed.... so nobody listen to him."

And anyone know of an adjective to describe someone who thinks other people are boring and unsophisticated if they don't happen to share that person's interests?


(by the way, you brought up einstein earlier - I'll bump the thread for you because you never answered my last question, where you obtained the deliberately manipulated einstein quote)

Stop embarrassing yourself beastie. That phrase "I don't think I am a pantheist" hardly changes the argument and does nothing to further your crazy agenda in proving Einstein wasn't really a theist. Einstein was speaking as someone who didn't understand what pantheism entailed: cautiously. My source didn't "deliberately" leave it out, in fact I think I did. I wasn't planning to cite the entire paragraph so I decided to leave out irrelevant portions. But after he started talking about the giant library it seemed like every other word pertained to the point. The comment on pantheism doesn't change anything. He said point blank, he doesn't think he can be called a pantheist. At the very least it shows he is leaning against it, which still flies in the face of Dawkins and others who said he was an atheist. And even if he did think he was a pantheist, how would that even begin to help your case? Pantheism is just another variety of theism!
You have no case to be made. You're quibbling on irrelevant tid bits because your case is pretty much a lost cause. You kept going round and round over territory that has already been addressed and I got tired of repeating myself. Essentially what you have to do is ignore a dozen unambiguous citations while reading something you like into ambiguous ones. That is what your case boils down to.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Oh, lookie. Dart finds yet another opportunity to talk about what dreadful people atheists are!

I'm shocked, I tell you, just shocked.


You guys are hilarious!

When asked if atheists were unreasonable people, I said no.

Name a single atheist who would say the same about theists!

All I said was that I find atheists to be less than philosophically inclined, boring in discussion and one-dimensional. EA proved this to be true because this is the only time he ever shows up. And he did. Bashing anyone who "believes" seems to be his only interest.

Now compare that to the shite you guys have said about theists. Do you really want to compare?

There is no comparision. But you want to sit there and pretend you're being persecuted! One of your right hand hatchet men (mercury) threatened to kill me - literally. There was no protest from you guys. You guys have to stick together (like a religious groups do)!

But if a theist remarks that atheists are generally boring people, oh no, that's bigotry! That means he thinks they are "dreadful" and "morally undeveloped."

Stop being an idiot beastie.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Well this didn't answer my question. Is it beyond reason to say that four of any hand in a row is not intended because they are also as equally improbable as four flushes? Are all hands proof of cheating? Why is it only when the sequence is four flushes (or four aces, etc.) that we suspect cheating?

Because four flushes serve a purpose. Four of a meaningless hand would be viewed as an extraordinary coincidence.
I'm not sure what kind of analogy you're trying to push here. Can you get to the point?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

dartagnan wrote:When asked if atheists were unreasonable people, I said no.

Name a single atheist who would say the same about theists!

...err - what?!
You're asking if there is one atheist who - if asked the question:

"Are theists unreasonable people...?"

...is gonna answer 'no'...?

..ermm ... *puts hand up with a confused look*

One of your right hand hatchet men (mercury) threatened to kill me - literally. There was no protest from you guys.

Incorrect. From memory, several of us protested - including myself.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

I'm not sure how atheists lacking an interest in metaphysics somehow makes them deficient. For the most part, wild conjecture is something an atheist, in my experience, just isn't interested in deconstructing. The flipside of that coin requires unusual discipline when approaching the question of Being, which most people in general don't possess. Using a sceintific approach to existential questions is tricky, and usually falls back into the realm of personal observation however acute that may be. Again, in my opinion, Atheists seem to be more concerned with the here and now and how we can solve real personal and social problems in a pragmatic way rather than attempting to impose a "higher law" which supposedly solves complex human social dynamics. I don't have the desire to get into endless asides, you either agree or you don't. I'm sure one's position has more to do with one's self than others, in all reality.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I never said youw ere less morally developed.


I have to leave in two minutes, so don't have the time to find the thread and your exact quote. But you were quite clear in that you thought that atheists lacked any incentive to morally improve or progress, whereas theists have that incentive. Do you deny this? Or are you denying saying that I, as a particular person, am less morally developed? You did not accuse me, personally, of being less morally developed, but did say atheists in general are less morally developed. If you deny it, maybe later tonight I will have time to find your exact quote.

Dart, what's amusing about you is how you deliberately bait people, and then when they respond to your bait, do a little victory dance.

(by the way, I recently explained for DCP's benefit the difference between thinking people are not rational, and thinking that a particular belief system they embrace is not based on rational thinking - see page 5 of "editorial review at FARMS")
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I'll answer my question. The reason we are right to suspect cheating in the instance of 4 straight royal flushes but not four other random hands in a row that are just as unlikely is because we know there exists beings (people to be specific) who intend royal flushes as a target and have the ability to manipulate the cards to achieve this end.

Right. But it is just as unlikely to see four of this hand as any other hand.
In short, we know people have the means, motive, and oppurtunity to cheat. When you compare the likelihood of that occurring with how unlikely it is to happen in a random shuffle, we are then right to suspect cheating. It is our experience with humans that allows this conclusion.

Now your turn Kevin.

Huh? That's it? That's how you explain the purpose driven universe? By comparing it to a card game and then using human experience as the excuse as to why we only perceive "cheating" involved? Come on!

This analogy simply won't wash.

The universal constants are not things that can be explained by mere chance. Yes, there is a chance that if I drop 100 pennies, they will all land on heads. But that doesn't explain laws of the universe, such as gravity. Why is gravity what it is? Scientists really don't know that much about it or understand it other than to know that "it is."

We are not talking about things that can possibly fall into place by chance. We are talking about laws that were written and work together for the same purpose (electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces etc), things that are clearly mathematically intertwined in a way that serves the single purpose for our existence.

And yes, the multiverse is being used by atheists to mitigate the significance of the anthropic principle. This was revealed in 1973 when Carter presented his paper called "Large Number Coincidences and the Anthropic Principle." This called for a complete overthrow of the Copernican revolution. Science had been taking us down a different path up until that point, toward a mechanistic, impersonal, random view of the cosmos. No longer was Russell's claim taken for granted, that man was just a "curious accident in a backwater."

Carter was only using the discoveries of physicists Robert Dicke and John Wheeler from the 60's. But when he did this in 1973, for the first time ever, an explanation was finally offered for one of the biggest mysteries in physicas: the values of the fundamental constants.

Carter showed that if gravitational forces had been tinkered with, in relation to electromagnetic forces, then the universe would not have stars like our sun. There would only be red or blue suns, incapable of sustaining life. Any weakening of the nuclear strong force would result in a universe consisting of nothing but hydrogen! And this is just the tip of teh iceberg if you think about it. Through the years the list of improbable coincidences multiplied. Their only common denominator seemed to be that they were necessary for our existence.

The nature of water is a mystery in itself. Without it there could be no life. Another happy coincidence I suppose, is that water is lighter in its solid form (ice floats). If it didn't, then the oceans would freeze up and the earth would be covered with solid ice.
I don't have Leslie's book in hand, but there are tons more. So no, we are not talking about mere luck or chance, comparable to a guy getting four flushes in a row. If you really want to use the card analogy we would have to see it as hundreds of flushes in a row.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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