However, life isn't always "better" than death. Life, to me, isn't better or worse than death. It just is what it is. Death is what it is.
So how bad would your life have to get before you would choose suicide?
Ajax,
That's a telling question. I hope you're doing ok.
As for myself, I just don't have an aswer for you. I don't know. I don't think suicide is immoral, though. If someone chooses that action, it's their choice and it's quite possibly the only thing we can control. That in of itself makes it significant if that's the case.
I'm not suicidal. It's just a logical question. For me my beliefs have helped me go on. I wonder what helps other people.
Another logical follow up would be, "How badly does someone have to treat you before you're willing to go to war over it?"
I think our ancestors had a very low tolerance for their rights being trampled on. I'm not so sure that's a bad thing.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
but it's not logical. If Joseph Smith said you could get to the terrestrial (and it's telestial by the way, and this is attributed to him only) by killing ourselves, and life is that bad, why not just do it? Why would there be any reason to stick around when fun is one bullet away? I'd think Nietzsche has a better grasp on why we should stick around and make the best of our situation. Tthere is nothing better to look forward to. You can complain all you want and hold out for the hope of mansions in heaven, or you can be grateful for what you have and try to enjoy and make the best of it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
I don't believe it's a straw man. In my experience, it is a quite common perspective of some theists. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't disprove my point, as I acknowledged up-front that this is not universally true. As for the evidence for God you claim to find, it's not evidence (I imagine) that I find persuasive.
Interesting that in one breath you say that I am posited a straw man, then in the next breath you state that my observation is significant in that die hard atheists reject it, implying, therefore, that theists accept it. If is was such a irrelevant straw man as you claim, then I struggle to figure out why it is at the same time significant.
I don't argue that all theists have a need to believe. I said as much in my post; I think this is true of a non-trivial number of believers but certainly not all nor even a majority. So your "give me a break" dismissal is inappropriately applied.
All that needs to be said here is…. There are no atheists in foxholes.
I'm not sure you're serious. But in any case, this is just plain rubbish.
As a side note, it would be interesting to me to see how many people who experience extreme crisis (e.g., the soldier in the foxhole) lose belief in God as a result. While I'm certain that such experience can and does often produce belief or increased belief in God, I think that the opposite can and also does often happen.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
ajax18 wrote:I admit, I haven't read Sartre. I was mainly referring to this board. It seems like most atheist say that we shouldn't concern ourselves with existential questions. Ironically I hear Church leaders do this as well once they have you where they want you.
Go ahead and shoot. Why are we here? Where are we going? What is the purpose of life? Maybe boring or indifference is what results from having less than satisfying answers to these questions.
Why are we here? Our parents had sex and conceived us.
Where are we going? Nowhere, at death, our existence ends.
What is the purpose of life? Whatever we make of it. For me, the purpose is to live a full life, find happiness where I can, do my part to raise a productive, well-adjusted next generation, enjoy myself, learn, grow, do things that interest me, and so forth.
I enjoy very much reading about and discussing 'existential' questions, I just do not find that religion offers very satisfying answers to them. I am happy to live with uncertainty; I don't personally need the assurance and comfort that religion offers.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
As far as the point of atheists not being 'that interested' and or not particularly 'sophisticated' when it comes to 'waxing philosophical', you might wanna pay a visit here Dart:
I am talking about atheists who get together and shoot the bull. They are not inclined to delve into philosophy. It seems they are only interested in getting their feet wet when they want to try refuting a theist on some philosophical point. Aside from that they appear disinterested. The website you linked us to is designed specifically for this: debating theists.
Jesus Hortio Christ, Dart, talk about gross generalization, hasty stereotype, stawman, or whatever you want to call it.
I conclude that you don't know what the sh** you're talking about. Your perceptions of atheists are so willfully uninformed that it makes no sense to try to discuss it with you.
Your like our good friend Prof P, who spends thousands of hours with apostates and yet evinces no evidence that he has any understanding of them or even tries to gain an understanding of them.
Might I suggest that you loosen your blinders a bit, actually make an effort to look around and learn a bit from those around you, before you barge in and continue making the same uninformed arguments? You are obviously smart, but you also obviously have your blind spots.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
All that needs to be said here is…. There are no atheists in foxholes.
Guy responded:
I'm not sure you're serious. But in any case, this is just plain rubbish.
As a side note, it would be interesting to me to see how many people who experience extreme crisis (e.g., the soldier in the foxhole) lose belief in God as a result. While I'm certain that such experience can and does often produce belief or increased belief in God, I think that the opposite can and also does often happen.
Sorry to be confusing in my brevity. I was providing support for the assertion that emotional comfort is not an insignificant factor in religious belief by sharing one of the favorite theist cliches: there are no atheists in foxholes. What theists do not seem to grasp is that this cliché reveals the truth of what they often deny: emotional comfort is a significant factor in religious belief.
I think it's rubbish, as well. There are plenty of atheists who endure extreme crisis without suddenly "gittin' god", including myself. There were certainly times, such as when a dear friend died of cancer, when I actually wished I could believe in a loving god who might help us out, due to the emotional comfort that may bring, but I didn't suddenly become a believer.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Gadianton wrote:but it's not logical. If Joseph Smith said you could get to the terrestrial (and it's telestial by the way, and this is attributed to him only) by killing ourselves, and life is that bad, why not just do it? Why would there be any reason to stick around when fun is one bullet away? I'd think Nietzsche has a better grasp on why we should stick around and make the best of our situation. Tthere is nothing better to look forward to. You can complain all you want and hold out for the hope of mansions in heaven, or you can be grateful for what you have and try to enjoy and make the best of it.
Yeah, but the downside of the Telestial is that you get to dwell in hell for at least a thousand years before you get there. Hardly an effective escape route.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
All that needs to be said here is…. There are no atheists in foxholes.
Guy responded:
I'm not sure you're serious. But in any case, this is just plain rubbish.
As a side note, it would be interesting to me to see how many people who experience extreme crisis (e.g., the soldier in the foxhole) lose belief in God as a result. While I'm certain that such experience can and does often produce belief or increased belief in God, I think that the opposite can and also does often happen.
Sorry to be confusing in my brevity. I was providing support for the assertion that emotional comfort is not an insignificant factor in religious belief by sharing one of the favorite theist clichés: there are no atheists in foxholes. What theists do not seem to grasp is that this cliché reveals the truth of what they often deny: emotional comfort is a significant factor in religious belief.
I think it's rubbish, as well. There are plenty of atheists who endure extreme crisis without suddenly "gittin' god", including myself. There were certainly times, such as when a dear friend died of cancer, when I actually wished I could believe in a loving god who might help us out, due to the emotional comfort that may bring, but I didn't suddenly become a believer.
OK, thanks for the clarification.
I think that any theist who claims that emotional comfort is not a significant factor in religious belief (for many, but certainly not all) had his/her head in the sand.
That said, I think that any atheist who dismisses religious belief as nothing more than than a means to provide comfort and help believers cope with uncertainty is likewise ill-informed.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."