We only have informal, anecdotal evidence that hospital X is equivalent to hospital Y. I'm not convinced this is the case. In fact I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the church improves the lives of people I know (gets them off the street, focus on family, etc.)
Perhaps many benefits are available in other organizations, but that does not mean that "treatment Holy Ghost" is ineffective or unnecessary. I suppose it depends on what you value. The Holy Ghost bring more than just peace into one's life. It brings more than motivation to be kinder to others (but firm in rightousness). The Holy Ghost brings one a special connection with God and the knowledge of how to gain fulfillment through bringing one's life in harmony with the purpose for which He has put us here.
Hospital X is the LDS church, hospital Y is the rest of the host culture. How could they not be equivalent, except for "treatment Holy Ghost"? Are the people in hospital X sicker than the people in the host culture?
The problem with your assertions about the effect of the HG is that they're just assertions without evidence to back them up. Sure, you can provide an anecdotal story now and then, but we can also provide anecdotal evidence that other social structures enhances people's lives in a similar fashion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:Hospital X is the LDS church, hospital Y is the rest of the host culture. How could they not be equivalent, except for "treatment Holy Ghost"? Are the people in hospital X sicker than the people in the host culture?
The adversary works harder on people in hospital X.
The problem with your assertions about the effect of the HG is that they're just assertions without evidence to back them up. Sure, you can provide an anecdotal story now and then, but we can also provide anecdotal evidence that other social structures enhances people's lives in a similar fashion.
Which was my point. We have not done a formal study of it and I doubt God is up for those sort of games anyhow. The Holy Ghost is something one must choose for onesself, but it is not as simple a decision as merely becoming fully active in the church. Discipleship requires lots of hard work and dedication, but it is worth it.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
The adversary works harder on people in hospital X.
So what's with "by their fruits ye shall know them?" Should we actually expect Mormons to be less moral than nonmormons?
Which was my point. We have not done a formal study of it and I doubt God is up for those sort of games anyhow. The Holy Ghost is something one must choose for onesself, but it is not as simple a decision as merely becoming fully active in the church. Discipleship requires lots of hard work and dedication, but it is worth it.
Why would God have anything to do with "those sort of games"? There are ways to measure behavior and quality of life. We already know that Mormons tend to have at least the same amount of depression as the larger culture.
You seem to be implying that very few people are truly "disciples". Are there more "disciples" (in terms of manifesting superior moral behavior) in the LDS church than in the overall host culture?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
William Schryver wrote:I should note that the Utah Shakespearean Festival proudly displays its Tony award as the finest regional theater in the United States. Once you get to the level of the USF, the only place to go "up" is to Broadway.
The quality at the Utah Shakespearean Festival is quite high, and is certainly not to be dismissed as merely "local theater." (The overwhelming majority of the actors aren't "local," anyway.) My wife and I get to Broadway every once in a while (last February, for example), and have attended lots of theater not only in Utah but in Colorado and California and Washington DC and London, and we go to the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland when we can. USF can hold its head up in such company. The Tony certainly proves that.
beastie wrote:It's a good thing Will can act (at least up to local theater standards). It would be cruel to be cursed with such a drama-queen personality and not be able to act.
LOL!
Hey Will, is your new Sam Elliot avatar supposed to be ironic or something? It's not a good fit for your style, which is decidedly un-cool and increasingly obnoxious. I'm just sayin....
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
beastie wrote:So what's with "by their fruits ye shall know them?" Should we actually expect Mormons to be less moral than nonmormons?
The fruits of an individual helps us to understand how trustworthy and sincere such a person is. The problem here is that "by their fruits" applies more to the individual than to the group since the group exists to help people rather than as uniform hive of clones. I think we should hold Mormons to a higher standard than nonmormons, but the responsibility for improvement is theirs. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
You seem to be implying that very few people are truly "disciples". Are there more "disciples" (in terms of manifesting superior moral behavior) in the LDS church than in the overall host culture?
I do not know. Perhaps the ones who truly have superior moral behavior are the quiet ones. Perhaps they tend to be the ones who are too busy with their families and helping their neighbors to be bothering with message boards.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
asbestosman wrote:I do not know. Perhaps the ones who truly have superior moral behavior are the quiet ones. Perhaps they tend to be the ones who are too busy with their families and helping their neighbors to be bothering with message boards.
No. You know what they say about the quiet ones...
I think getting into questions of morality and ethics, without involving religious definitions, is probably the only way to truly find common ground between people of all faiths or ideologies. It's tricky because we have to abandon the platitudes that religion affords us on the one hand, but avoid the morass that philosophy tends to get into...
beastie wrote:It's a good thing Will can act (at least up to local theater standards). It would be cruel to be cursed with such a drama-queen personality and not be able to act.
LOL!
Hey Will, is your new Sam Elliot avatar supposed to be ironic or something?
No, just apropos.
It's not a good fit for your style, which is decidedly un-cool and increasingly obnoxious. I'm just sayin....
What would you know about "cool" anyway?
We all know that you're really just a dorky-looking fat man who used to be a dorky-looking kid who wished he could hang with the cool people in high school, but was too freaking geeky to even get a date until he was eighteen-years-old. You aspire to cool, but you don't even know what it means. Cool is tossing fish food in a piranha tank and then smacking the little bastards with your fist when they rise to the bait.
And of course you'd regard my most recent work as "increasingly obnoxious." After all, you've never been averse to taking your place right in the middle of the circle, heartily pounding out an approving beat for each and every orgiastic excess. You belong here.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
Oh my god. This guy is vile. I wonder if the talking carcass will say anything, at all, about his Mormon simpaticos acting this way. Probably not since he basically engages in the same kind of behavior, albeit with less aggressive language.
The Dude wrote: Hey Will, is your new Sam Elliot avatar supposed to be ironic or something?
No, just apropos.
It's not a good fit for your style, which is decidedly un-cool and increasingly obnoxious. I'm just sayin....
What would you know about "cool" anyway?
We all know that you're really just a dorky-looking fat man who used to be a dorky-looking kid who wished he could hang with the cool people in high school, but was too freaking geeky to even get a date until he was eighteen-years-old. You aspire to cool, but you don't even know what it means. Cool is tossing fish food in a piranha tank and then smacking the little bastards with your fist when they rise to the bait.
And of course you'd regard my most recent work as "increasingly obnoxious." After all, you've never been averse to taking your place right in the middle of the circle, heartily pounding out an approving beat for each and every orgiastic excess. You belong here.
Here is a slight mustachioed variation for Will to consider as an avatar:
