The Unreasonableness of Atheism

[_Tarski]

One of the popular models has the universe being always topologically equivalent to a copy of R^3. In the The Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker (FLRW) model with K<=0, each spatial slice is a constant curvature space of infinite extent but with density approaching infinity at one goes back toward the time of the big bang. In these K<=0 models, it was only the observable universe that was once crammed into a dot. But there was, at any positive time, a whole R^3 full of such dots each destined to fill out a volume as large as what we can now observe. In the K>0 case, the whole universe (not just the observable universe) was a tiny dense copy of S^3.

If the universe is expanding and entropy is the tendency, is it conceivable that at some point in time/space that the universe wil be contracting and order will be the tendency?

Well, it is certainly conceivable.
You might be interested in Gold's time-symmetric universe.
A book or two for you
http://www.amazon.com/Times-Arrows-Toda ... 0521599458
http://www.amazon.com/Times-Arrow-Archi ... pd_sim_b_2

[_Tarski]

BC,

Since you probably like Sci-Fi, read the short story "Anarchy Park" by Larry Niven. If that doesn't answer your question, nothing will. Since you're just trolling though, well, back to ignoring you posts. You're getting some good reactions so I guess you should get some credit for that. Sill have a ways to go though before you reach the level of Master Wade. He's about the only apologist that can suck me in no matter how many times I tell myself I'm going to ignore him.

Are you talking about "Cloak of Anarchy" by Niven or is this another story?

[_bcspace]

Pretend, for just a moment, that there is no god after all. Religions still exist, of course.

Now, if there is no god, what was the origination of the moral codes that became enshrined in religion?

The answer is obvious: these moral codes originated from human beings.

What would make them do that instead of taking the easier path of HL (which, for the sake of discussion and humor, we can pronounce as "hell")? Why do some take that path and others do not?

[_bcspace]

Since you probably like Sci-Fi, read the short story "Anarchy Park" by Larry Niven. If that doesn't answer your question, nothing will. Since you're just trolling though, well, back to ignoring you posts.

You mean "Cloak of Anarchy"? I am familiar with the work.

You're getting some good reactions so I guess you should get some credit for that. Sill have a ways to go though before you reach the level of Master Wade. He's about the only apologist that can suck me in no matter how many times I tell myself I'm going to ignore him.

It's not my purpose to "suck" you into conversation. If Wade scratches your ears and I do not, so be it.

[_bcspace]

A huge strike against atheists might be this:

If most atheists are good moral people (standard Christian definition of good and moral), why?

What morals are we talking about specifically?

Just general morals defined as per Christianity since that is what most people here are familar with and because the LDS Church, being Christian, is the major topic of discussion on this board.

Why should anyone be judged by the Christian standard?

If Christianity is true, all shall be judged by that standard.

My answer would be "the light of Christ" because from the atheist pov, there is no reason not to be a hedonistic libertine.

This statement demonstrates a very narrow world view.

No, it's simply an LDS pov. If I have taken many other world views into account (and I have), my view cannot possibly be narrow.

I would like to see a list (not necessarily exhaustive) of "christian morals" and maybe a statement as to why I should adhere to each them.

No need for the purposes this discussion. Just think about what is good and right, even as defined by your own pov and consider why you adhere to those morals.

I can't believe ya'll took the time to answer him. It won't phase him. He's convinced that atheists are having wild kinky monkey sex, doing outlandish behavior, stealing, cheating, etc...

Actually, I thought I was quite clear in stating that many atheists are good and moral people. I know some, I have encountered others, and I do believe that.

by the way, did you not know that LDS are commanded to have wild kinky monkey sex? Proverbs 5:18-19.
Perhaps you prefer underwater hippo sex?

It doesn't matter how many times some believers of the LDS faith are told about reciprocal altruism, moral codes derived from man, empathy, etc... they won't accept that you can be a good, moral person outside of their religion, because then, well, what is the point of their religion?

This is not true. Being good and moral certainly is a prerequist for eternal life, but since it's not the only one, there will be many good and moral people who do not get eternal life because they are unbelieving, etc.

The LDS faith with the coffee taboo, masturbation taboo, and other taboos that have no discernible impact on how we actually treat each other in society actually ensures, as well, they that see themselves as morally superior. So, no matter what, they have this fall back on absurd notions of morality that most people dismiss.

So where does being good and moral in an atheist come from? Saying that it comes from the self is akin to proving God exists so it's not satisfactory. So likewise game theory is a dead end. What else you got?

[_Moniker]

I can't believe ya'll took the time to answer him. It won't phase him. He's convinced that atheists are having wild kinky monkey sex, doing outlandish behavior, stealing, cheating, etc...

Actually, I thought I was quite clear in stating that many atheists are good and moral people. I know some, I have encountered others, and I do believe that.

by the way, did you not know that LDS are commanded to have wild kinky monkey sex? Proverbs 5:18-19.
Perhaps you prefer underwater hippo sex?

I thought LDS were commanded to have sex as a three some with the Holy Ghost presiding.

So where does being good and moral in an atheist come from? Saying that it comes from the self is akin to proving God exists so it's not satisfactory. So likewise game theory is a dead end. What else you got?

This is what I was getting at, bc. I mentioned reciprocal altruism, how moral or ethical codes are created by society, etc... and you're still going back to the default of God. I have NEVER been a Christian. I have NEVER been a believer in any type of religion. My parents were STRICT, my father was military and ethical codes were DRILLED into me as a child. I was indoctrinated to live with dignity, loyalty, and honesty. Where did he learn these? From his father. Where did his father learn these? From his and so on. I also have mirror neurons that allow me to experience another persons pain as if I was feeling it myself. I do not desire to hurt others for I feel it myself!

[_Moniker]

Let me add this about atheists -- you can't make generalized statements about them. Some are unethical. Some aren't. There's no tenets, only individuals.

I think the LDS Church teaches members some fairly unethical things with its culture, by the way.

[_bcspace]

I thought LDS were commanded to have sex as a three some with the Holy Ghost presiding.

You think a lot of things.....

This is what I was getting at, bc. I mentioned reciprocal altruism, how moral or ethical codes are created by society, etc... and you're still going back to the default of God.

Logically, my default is no different than your default. Where does this altruism come from for example?

I have NEVER been a Christian. I have NEVER been a believer in any type of religion. My parents were STRICT, my father was military and ethical codes were DRILLED into me as a child. I was indoctrinated to live with dignity, loyalty, and honesty. Where did he learn these? From his father. Where did his father learn these? From his and so on.

And them from.....?

I also have mirror neurons that allow me to experience another persons pain as if I was feeling it myself. I do not desire to hurt others for I feel it myself!

People interpret sensory input different though it would seem there are rules that apply. But again, where does this come from?

For a person who does not believe in a God or an afterlife, why not give in to the call of our senses and egage in an HL lifestyle? Why develop ethics and be altruistic instead?

[_Moniker]

I thought LDS were commanded to have sex as a three some with the Holy Ghost presiding.

You think a lot of things.....

This is what I was getting at, bc. I mentioned reciprocal altruism, how moral or ethical codes are created by society, etc... and you're still going back to the default of God.

Logically, my default is no different than your default. Where does this altruism come from for example?

I thought you were well read on evolution, yet, apparently you're not. Altruism is necessary for survival.

I have NEVER been a Christian. I have NEVER been a believer in any type of religion. My parents were STRICT, my father was military and ethical codes were DRILLED into me as a child. I was indoctrinated to live with dignity, loyalty, and honesty. Where did he learn these? From his father. Where did his father learn these? From his and so on.

And them from.....?

From society that learned the best way to navigate safely in this world.

I also have mirror neurons that allow me to experience another persons pain as if I was feeling it myself. I do not desire to hurt others for I feel it myself!

People interpret sensory input different though it would seem there are rules that apply. But again, where does this come from?

Mirror neurons are in our brain. Some theorize that mirror neurons are actually responsible for our great leap forward and culture derived from them.

Look here, please: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramacha ... an_p1.html

For a person who does not believe in a God or an afterlife, why not give in to the call of our senses and egage in an HL lifestyle? Why develop ethics and be altruistic instead?

You need to define a hedonistic libertine lifestyle, for me. I imagine our definitions vary widely. For instance, hedonism is merely pursuit of pleasure -- my pursuit of pleasure actually entails ensuring that those about me are pleased, as well. I am altruistic because it makes me feel good, and I also recognize the benefits of helping humanity. I don't believe in an afterlife and believe I must do all I can while I live to help others that go without. I have been very blessed in my life and want to share my blessings with others. Altruism is hedonism, for me.

[_bcspace]

I thought you were well read on evolution, yet, apparently you're not.

I am.

Altruism is necessary for survival.

Sure. But you are speaking to someone who believes evolution is part of the (God) creative process. However, perhaps it's a mistake to address altruism here as it may not apply to the question.

And them from.....?

From society that learned the best way to navigate safely in this world.

And society gets it from? And what keeps everyone on track?

Mirror neurons are in our brain. Some theorize that mirror neurons are actually responsible for our great leap forward and culture derived from them.

Look here, please: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramacha ... an_p1.html

Again, where does all this come from?

You need to define a hedonistic libertine lifestyle, for me. I imagine our definitions vary widely. For instance, hedonism is merely pursuit of pleasure -- my pursuit of pleasure actually entails ensuring that those about me are pleased, as well. I am altruistic because it makes me feel good, and I also recognize the benefits of helping humanity. I don't believe in an afterlife and believe I must do all I can while I live to help others that go without. I have been very blessed in my life and want to share my blessings with others. Altruism is hedonism, for me.

One can certainly be concerned for others and still be a libertine or a hedonist.

Why would an atheist have any values at all beyond the self? Why would such make an atheist feel good?

I , a believer in God, have values beyond the self and they make me feel good too. However, I have an explaination for this and an athiest does not as far as I can tell.