Why I am not a Mormon

[_Daniel Peterson]

Wait ... which case are you resting?

My defense against the charge that I'm a real villain.

Heck, as you point out, I don't even know proper villain lingo.

[_Canucklehead]

Wait ... which case are you resting?

My defense against the charge that I'm a real villain.

Heck, as you point out, I don't even know proper villain lingo.

How clever of you to present your defence wrapped in layers of Socratic irony.

Of Dan Peterson, as with Plato and Nietzsche, it can truthfully be said that he writes for his true readers. A villain? Nay! Rather a philosopher and a gentleman!

Unless, of course, this now-unravelled riddle was planted from the beginning as part of an even deeper and more treacherous ruse. Such pure, unadulterated villainy that would be!!

[_Gadianton]

I know how GoodK feels because I've been in the same position many times. (not specifically refering to the sick family member) I've been "cc'd" on plenty of emails that are hoped to "encourage' me and it's so hard to just let them go.

In this case, think of the worry and pain of having someone close to you so sick juxtaposed against the TBM language like "boldly rebuking the very disease.." that you just can't parse without nearly breaking down laughing. How exactly to deal with ath?

But whether it's emails cc'd or family prayers where parentheticals for the instruction of the apostate are inserted, it's hard to always just let it go without saying anything. It's all "Good intentions" but sometimes the implications and hopelessly arrogant and narrow visions of those good intentions become impossible to deal with over the years.

I love my parents and have a good relationship with them. But that's because I let it go. I don't hurt them. I keep them in the dark. I let them send their ridiculous religious chain letters to me or embellished geneology stories, I just go along with their exaggerated religious displays at gatherings where they're hoping to instill something into the apostate with their put-on words of faith.

So I'm a better son than Goodk is. However, the downside is that I live a couple thousand miles away, and I just can't spend a lot of time with them. Perhaps if I could pull a GoodK, and point out what a looney bunch of BS some of the stuff they come up with looks like to normal people, and how offensive some of the implications of their self-righteous prayers and conversations seem to those not fully on board with them, I might hurt them, but at the same time that might be good for them and me and clear the air a little. Make the realtionship a little more equal.

I probably won't do that, and just continue on letting them talk past me. But Goodk is probably better off that he can tell it like it is to Dad. His dad is lucky to have a son that does that, rather than one who drifts away to avoid the confrontation. My parents have no idea who I am. They want to understand me more than anything before they die (they are getting older) but I won't let them. They will not have the benefit GoodK's parents have. Is it better for them that way?

I think Dr. Peterson has become so sensitive to "anti-Mormonism" that he can't tell the difference between the charged attacks of street preachers and the difficult heartache and conflicted feelings involved when family members put each other down or each other's beliefs. And I think it's just ridiculous that he can only see that the Dad is being a "good dad" for putting up with such a crappy son who can't even respect Dad's religion. (Apologists are about 100000 times more sensitive about people respecting their religion than normal religious people are).
His Dad should be, and I'm thinking is, happy to have a son who can open up and say what's really on his mind even if doesn't satisfy the apologists' rules of scholarly interfaith dialogue.

So all this BS about how Goodk is cowardly and FatherK is the great patriarch like unto Abraham is another one of those things that's sad and hilarious at the same time. Jesus, Fatherk is trying to accept his son but goodk is also trying to accept his dad. The "insults" hardly cloud that at all, in fact, they punctuate it. That it sails right over the heads of the apologists is just predictable as all heck. FARMS ought to do include in the next FROB a detailed rebuttal of Goodk's responses to his father. They just can't get past, no matter what the circumstances, "He, he, well, he just done said somethin' real insensitive toward my sacred beliefs!" That's all the apologists see.

[_GoodK]

Amazing.

To make mind altering and earth shattering judgements/decisions concerning God and truth at a young age is risky behavior, in my opinion

I know, right! I mean, if the basic doctrines of Christianity and Mormonism are correct,
I am really in some trouble.


The fact that my public rejection of Mormonism and Christianitydoes not worry me in the least should suggest to you how inadequate I think your reasons for being a Mormon are.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think Dr. Peterson has become so sensitive to "anti-Mormonism" that he can't tell the difference between the charged attacks of street preachers and the difficult heartache and conflicted feelings involved when family members put each other down or each other's beliefs.

You think wrong.

And I think it's just ridiculous that he can only see that the Dad is being a "good dad" for putting up with such a crappy son who can't even respect Dad's religion.

You don't know what you're pontificating about.

So all this BS about how Goodk is cowardly and FatherK is the great patriarch like unto Abraham is another one of those things that's sad and hilarious at the same time.

It's an absurd straw man. I've said nothing of the kind.

They just can't get past, no matter what the circumstances, "He, he, well, he just done said somethin' real insensitive toward my sacred beliefs!" That's all the apologists see.

It seems to make you feel superior to put us lesser folk in our place, even if doin' so requires some mighty powerful caricaturin'.

[_Yoda]

Dr. Peterson, I would like you to clarify something for me. You have continually made a point of stating how insignificant this board is as far as members in general visiting it, and, in particular, your colleagues at FARMS showing any real interest in it.

Yet, I'm assuming that the reason you told GoodK's father about his posting is because you were afraid he would see it on his own and be hurt by it.

How were you afraid he would come across it? Is he a known lurker here?

[_beastie]

DCP –

It’s unfortunate that you chose to be snide and dismissive towards Gad’s latest post, because it could have helped you understand the interactions between Mormon and exmormon.

In the relationships between Mormon and exmormon, it’s almost always the exmormon who is expected to, so to speak, “suck it up”. By suck it up I mean tolerate a certain amount of preaching, cajoling, chastising, in order to maintain the relationship. If/when exmormons attempt to engage in reciprocal preaching, cajoling, chastising, the Mormons are normally quite offended and demand that it cease and desist. It’s a microcosm of our larger society – religious belief is accorded special, protected status, and to challenge or confront that is deemed unacceptable, militant, rude. (did you see the cartoon GoodK shared?)

ZLMB was a good demonstration of this reality. The board was set up to have unbiased rules and moderation, as a direct reaction to the injustice of the Tanner’s old board. Many, if not most, Mormons chafed at this. They kept trying to find ways to accord religious belief special status that would be denied nonbelief. One of the silliest attempts was to state that “positive beliefs” automatically deserved respect while “negative beliefs” had no such right or expectation.

We exmormons understand this reality, and do suck it up, by and large, in order to maintain familial relations. But Gad is right – the relations we maintain through this devil’s bargain are more superficial thanks to the bargain. Yet we understand that those of us who can maintain somewhat friendly relations with Mormon family are lucky to be able to do so. Do you realize how sad that is? I feel lucky that my family is willing to have this type of relationship – the one where they get to preach at me, send me faith promoting material in the hopes of changing my mind, or manipulate other situations to try and “reach” me. The same one where I have to smile and suck it up when they do so. Thankfully, they do so much less than they use to, but it still happens. Now, if I were doing this – if I were preaching, sending them “anti” material in the hopes of changing their mind, manipulating situations to try and “reach” them, our relationship would have ended long ago. The result is, although I love my family and they love me, we do have a somewhat superficial, controlled relationship. They only recently discovered that I’m an atheist. I’ve been an atheist for well over a decade, but our relationship does not allow for the exchange of that sort of information. The only reason I broke down and told them was because my atheist son – who was never really a Mormon, I left the church when he was around 6 and doesn’t understand the “devil’s bargain” – felt belittled by the type of statements my parents tend to make about religious belief and lack thereof. So it was my mother’s instinct that overcame my desire to maintain the devil’s bargain. And all I said was “look, I am an atheist. My son is an atheist. My boyfriend is an atheist. Please don’t make denigrating comments about atheists in front of us.” And believe me, I groveled and made it as unthreatening as I possibly could.

Our society is permeated with religious belief. It is everywhere, even where the law supposedly forbids it. The school where I teach, for example, has regular “reward activities” for children who have manifested good behavior, and every year has at least one or two that includes “religious” entertainment – like a team of college students who perform amazing feats of strength while discussing how it’s their faith in Jesus that gives them the strength to bend steel bars. I’m not kidding or exaggerating. My coworkers regularly send me emails requesting prayers, sharing faith promoting miracles, etc.

I suck it up. You know why? I have to. If I didn’t suck it up, if I actually requested religionists to understand that not everyone believes, I’d be viewed as a “militant atheist”. I don’t want to hurt the relationships I have with these people.

Do you understand what that means? Nonbelievers have to understand that they have to suck it up or hurt their relationships with believers. Do you understand what that says about believers and their sense of entitlement and privilege???

Frankly, I get sick of it. It’s tiring. It’s demeaning. And it’s the reason why I come to this board and VENT. It took me a while to understand that this was my motivation. This board is the one place where I don’t have to suck it up, and I can actually be frank and honest with believers about what I think of their belief.

That is what GoodK was doing, and the fact that you couldn’t tolerate it and had to drag it into his real life demonstrates how little you understand the “devil’s bargain” we nonbelievers live with every day. And your dismissive response to Gad’s post demonstrates how little you care about that devil’s bargain, even when it is pointed out to you. You are just like the other believers – your sense of religious entitlement and privilege is so deeply engrained that you cannot imagine it being any other way. It is the natural order of the universe.

What is ridiculous about this is that we’re not asking that you abandon your beliefs (with few exceptions) – we’re just asking that you quit pushing your beliefs on us, and creating relationships in which we have to tolerate that pushing to be able to maintain ANY relationship with the people we love.

Now I predict that you will respond to my post dismissively, just like you did with Gad, probably by saying something like: yes, we all know I am a malicious, entitled, and privileged person.

So I'll tell you in advance: thanks for not listening and proving my point.

OTOH, you could surprise me and respond in a thoughtful way. You do that now and then. And it does surprise me.

[_Moniker]

Beastie and Gad are right.

My mother doesn't precisely know I have no belief in God, yet, she knows I'm not religious -- she pushes me to attend Church. Picks up my children every so often with a tsk tsk and a scowl in my direction when I can't be bothered. I've attended reluctantly with my family as an adult. I delete the chain emails that are forwarded to me from family, colleagues, peers, and friends, I pray at my parents house before dinner, I accept the literature, the bookmarks (what is up with religious bookmarks?!) -- I tell no one I have a disbelief in Jesus Christ. I am asked where I attend Church constantly -- even on job interviews. I have knocks on my door constantly and smile and talk to those concerned for my soul. I deflect questions... I worry my children will be shunned in the community.

I'm quiet. I smile. I nod.

I'm not even an apostate of any religion and I'm in hiding. GoodK is very courageous to be so open with his disbelief.

[_beastie]

I deflect questions... I worry my children will be shunned in the community.

This is not paranoia. It is a realistic fear.

There are some areas of the US where this is not so prevalent, or so I've heard - extremely liberal cities like Seattle. And it certainly isn't this way in many European countries, like France. But it's reality for the majority of the US.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Additionally I find it amazing that DP would drop in here and subject himself to a public mauling. Was he actually hoping to convince anyone HERE that he was in the right? I doubt it. I do think that he may have felt it necessary to stand up, however, to protect/defend his good name. At least from his POV.

Can't fault a man for that!

We're not "faulting" him for that. We are "faulting" him for butting into GoodK's family affairs.