Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all

[_Dr. Shades]

No. Jesus was the perfect Exemplar. My parents were good, but they were imperfect just like everyone else.

In other words, do you agree with me that bcspace is wrong--that just because Jesus mouthed off to the Pharisees and went completely ape in the temple, that His disciples aren't necessarily given the same license to mouth off and go ape themselves, just because Jesus did?

[_asbestosman]

No. Jesus was the perfect Exemplar. My parents were good, but they were imperfect just like everyone else.

In other words, do you agree with me that bcspace is wrong--that just because Jesus mouthed off to the Pharisees and went completely ape in the temple, that His disciples aren't necessarily given the same license to mouth off and go ape themselves, just because Jesus did?

I think it's proper to harshly condemn sin and hypocrisy just as Jesus did. I don't think it's proper to declare myself the Son of God just because Jesus did--He actually was the Son of God while I am not.

I think it proper to follow Jesus's example except in certain things that are His job alone. We do need to speak against sin, but it is not our job to condemn the sinner--that is His job because we do not know a person's heart well enough for final judgment. We do, however, have to judge as to who we can trust and to what extent.

[_bcspace]

Jesus certainly dished out a lot of tough love. Is he not our Exemplar?

If the parents are allowed to spank, are the children allowed to spank also?

Are LDS asked to preach the gospel, call people to repentance, and raise the voice of warning?

Experts are qualified to correct experts.

1 Corinthains 6:2 There's a first time for everything.

Jesus certainly dished out a lot of tough love. Is he not our Exemplar? Nite Liz ;)

No he didn't, or at least we don't know that he did. There's no way to confirm many of the stories in the New Testament, which were all written decades after the fact, and which, apparently, a number of tall tales with events that may or may not have happened and may or may not have happened the way they're described.

Then by this logic, he must not have forgiven anyone either. The fact remains that people do believe in Jesus and the account contained in the Bible.

I think it's proper to harshly condemn sin and hypocrisy just as Jesus did.

Yep.

I don't think it's proper to declare myself the Son of God just because Jesus did--He actually was the Son of God while I am not.

Yep.

I think it proper to follow Jesus's example except in certain things that are His job alone.

Actually, according to the scriptural account, he's delegated it all to us.

[_asbestosman]

While we can strongly condemn sin, I think it's important to keep in mind Paul's admonition to Timothy (Dude, close your eyes):

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

We can rebuke with sharpness while showing afterward an increase in love.

[_Yoda]

While we can strongly condemn sin, I think it's important to keep in mind Paul's admonition to Timothy (Dude, close your eyes):

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

We can rebuke with sharpness while showing afterward an increase in love.

Beautiful points, Abman. :)

[_beastie]

This thread is sad to me. Asbman is an intelligent, thoughtful, sincere individual, which is why so many of us are fond of him. But those very qualities - being intelligent, thoughtful, and sincere - are the traits that have set him up on a path that is dividing him from the faith. So he's right, he does have to make a choice - but it's sad to me that one of those choices is learning to ignore your own thoughts, and instead, accept that some vague, self-appointed "expert" knows more than you.

Religious "experts" aren't experts in the same way that historians, scientists, engineers, become experts. They're self appointed experts. They really don't have any more qualifications than YOU do asbman. Don't the past teachings of prophets - contradictory and embarrassing - prove that more than adequately? These are the "experts" that declared african americans to be less worthy fence sitters. These are the "experts" that declared Adam is our God... but a couple decades later decided no, he's not.

[_Scottie]

Beastie, to take abman's side for a second...

If he has noticed a pattern that when he follows their counsel, he is more happy, doesn't it logically make sense that following more counsel would bring him more happiness? Regardless of their "expert" status, they are voicing something that resonates with Abman.

In a way, he is past blind faith. Has has seen how following the teachings of the LDS leaders brings him happiness. To go back to the Dr analogy, a Dr might tell you that smoking is bad. You can either believe that on blind faith and trust the Dr, or you can smoke for a while, find all the ill effects of smoking for yourself, and realize that the Dr knew best. Now when the Dr tells you exercising will make you feel better, you are more prone to believe it. It is not necessarily blind faith, it is trust in someone who has made your life happier in the past. Now, mind you, I'm not saying that LDS teachings will make everyone happier, but it seems to work for Abman.

[_beastie]

Good point, scottie.

In response to that, I say that it doesn't necessarily follow that if you follow the counsel of church leaders in certain aspects, and it brings happiness, that means that following all of their counsel would likewise bring happiness. Chances are good that asbman has first followed the counsel that resonated with him in the first place, and has been more cautious in following counsel that doesn't resonate with him. Following counsel that already resonates with you is one thing - following counsel that does NOT resonate with you is quite another.

Example: being financially frugal, being faithful to one's spouse, and doing one's best to be a good parent are counsels that resonate with most sensible people. Following them will most likely produce more happiness than NOT following them would bring.

However, for another example, taking the stance that gay people cannot marry, that God views homosexuality as a sin even if people are born that way may not strike many people as sensible, and forcing one to adopt that view is most likely not going to produce more happiness than if one actually followed one's own heart in the matter.

[_guy sajer]

No. Jesus was the perfect Exemplar. My parents were good, but they were imperfect just like everyone else.

In other words, do you agree with me that bcspace is wrong--that just because Jesus mouthed off to the Pharisees and went completely ape in the temple, that His disciples aren't necessarily given the same license to mouth off and go ape themselves, just because Jesus did?

Come to that, Jesus (in his guise of Jehovah) also killed every man, woman, and child on earth, save a handful, because his was piqued at them.

So, just because Jesus committed genocide, does that give his disciples the same license to commit genocide also?

[_The Nehor]

So, just because Jesus committed genocide, does that give his disciples the same license to commit genocide also?

One can only hope...........

Please say yes. Please say yes.