Why I am not a Mormon

[_EAllusion]

Imagine for a second that GoodK sent a chain email using his sister's illness as an personal, emotional illustration of the argument from evil against the existence of God in general and Mormon belief in particular to his Mormon family. Imagine further that his email had the tone of almost cocky bragging.

That is all.

[_Yoda]

Additionally I find it amazing that DP would drop in here and subject himself to a public mauling. Was he actually hoping to convince anyone HERE that he was in the right? I doubt it. I do think that he may have felt it necessary to stand up, however, to protect/defend his good name. At least from his POV.

Can't fault a man for that!

We're not "faulting" him for that. We are "faulting" him for butting into GoodK's family affairs.

And I agree that it would have been best had this not happened.

However, I understand from a friend perspective where Dr. Peterson was coming from. I just don't think he thought things through the right way.

If I was concerned about a good friend of mine seeing something posted that I knew would cause him/her deep hurt, I would be in a quandary as to how to handle it. I guess what is confusing me about the issue is that MDB is, as far as readership goes, a pretty small board. Unless Dr. Peterson knew for a fact that GoodK's Dad visited this board, or, at the very least, a group of colleagues of GoodK's Dad visited the board, I really don't see what need there was to draw this whole matter to his attention, particularly given the circumstances of his daughter being in the hospital.

[_The Nehor]

Imagine for a second that GoodK sent a chain email using his sister's illness as an personal, emotional illustration of the argument from evil against the existence of God in general and Mormon belief in particular to his Mormon family. Imagine further that his email had the tone of almost cocky bragging.

That is all.

I would find it hilarious. Pity my non-LDS relatives don't do this. :(

[_EAllusion]

Imagine for a second that GoodK sent a chain email using his sister's illness as an personal, emotional illustration of the argument from evil against the existence of God in general and Mormon belief in particular to his Mormon family. Imagine further that his email had the tone of almost cocky bragging.

That is all.

I would find it hilarious. Pity my non-LDS relatives don't do this. :(

I think it would kind of a jerk move. His step-dad's letter was boastful, ridiculous to the point of comedy, and proposed a rather unethical reality if think through the implications of his petitionary prayer beliefs. It's also of questionable taste to use the situation to proselytize like that. GoodK blew off steam by calling him a blowhard anonymously on a message board. Going through the trouble of tattling on him to his father also was kind of a jerk move.

[_EAllusion]

(I also think many LDS would be offended by a letter like that to the point where most people consider it out of the question. I was making a point about what that says.)

[_Tarski]

Imagine for a second that GoodK sent a chain email using his sister's illness as an personal, emotional illustration of the argument from evil against the existence of God in general and Mormon belief in particular to his Mormon family. Imagine further that his email had the tone of almost cocky bragging.

That is all.

I would find it hilarious. :(

Then you know how some of the religious chain mail we get makes us apostates feel. Yet, the hilarity gives way to annoyance eventually.


PS. Talked to any gods or ressurected beings from other universes lately? I miss that stuff.

[_Runtu]

In the relationships between Mormon and exmormon, it’s almost always the exmormon who is expected to, so to speak, “suck it up”. By suck it up I mean tolerate a certain amount of preaching, cajoling, chastising, in order to maintain the relationship. If/when exmormons attempt to engage in reciprocal preaching, cajoling, chastising, the Mormons are normally quite offended and demand that it cease and desist. It’s a microcosm of our larger society – religious belief is accorded special, protected status, and to challenge or confront that is deemed unacceptable, militant, rude. (did you see the cartoon GoodK shared?)

Excellent post, beastie. Your situation mirrors mine. I keep my mouth shut about my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) around family, friends, and coworkers because my beliefs are not welcome, and I've been told that many times.

At home, I've been told I have no right to talk to my children about my beliefs and why I believe the way I do. Any books about the church and its history are considered an evil presence in our home (even Lucy Mack Smith's biography of Joseph Smith was called "anti-Mormon" with "an evil spirit to it."). So, I promise not to talk to my kids about my beliefs unless they ask, and when they do ask, I'm told I should have deferred to a believer. I get subtle and unsubtle attempts to proselytize me back into the church, but I have to remain silent.

At work, people are constantly talking about religion (there are 5 current or former bishops working here), so I just smile and don't engage in the conversation. When I made the mistake of telling a colleague that early polygamy and polyandry were troubling to me, I got a barrage of emails and visits from the guy until he was convinced that I really didn't want to talk about it anymore. People have religious items, such as the Del Parsons Jesus, all over the place, but when my atheist colleague put up a rather inoffensive quote from Bertrand Russell about unbelief, he was asked to take it down because it was "intolerant."

But, as you said, we suck it up because we understand that this is how our American society works. And I do come here to vent, just as you do. In some respects, the idea that we wear different faces in different places is true. There is a lot I can't say over on MAD without getting in trouble, so I don't say it. That's one of the places you have to keep your opinions guarded, but it's not like that here. But when you do that, you get accused of being two-faced.

You really can't win, can you? But I am not complaining. I just understand how the game works, and I work with the rules the best I can.

[_The Nehor]

PS. Talked to any gods or ressurected beings from other universes lately? I miss that stuff.

I was worried that the hilarity was giving way to annoyance.

[_Yoda]

Beastie and Gad are right.

My mother doesn't precisely know I have no belief in God, yet, she knows I'm not religious -- she pushes me to attend Church. Picks up my children every so often with a tsk tsk and a scowl in my direction when I can't be bothered. I've attended reluctantly with my family as an adult. I delete the chain emails that are forwarded to me from family, colleagues, peers, and friends, I pray at my parents house before dinner, I accept the literature, the bookmarks (what is up with religious bookmarks?!) -- I tell no one I have a disbelief in Jesus Christ. I am asked where I attend Church constantly -- even on job interviews. I have knocks on my door constantly and smile and talk to those concerned for my soul. I deflect questions... I worry my children will be shunned in the community.

I'm quiet. I smile. I nod.

I'm not even an apostate of any religion and I'm in hiding. GoodK is very courageous to be so open with his disbelief.

Ah, yes, the complexity of living in the South... ;)

I live in the North Carolina Bible belt, and being asked what church you belong to is second nature for most conversations. I get email forwards all the time from co-workers in the "God loves you" vein. It doesn't bother me, but it is rather annoying from a business sense because it's not like you can delete these people from your contact list. LOL

I never really thought about this from the perspective of someone who has no religion, but, yes, it would be hard. Churches, at least here in the South, are a HUGE part of the social structure.

[_Sam Harris]

DCP –

It’s unfortunate that you chose to be snide and dismissive towards Gad’s latest post, because it could have helped you understand the interactions between Mormon and exmormon.

In the relationships between Mormon and exmormon, it’s almost always the exmormon who is expected to, so to speak, “suck it up”. By suck it up I mean tolerate a certain amount of preaching, cajoling, chastising, in order to maintain the relationship. If/when exmormons attempt to engage in reciprocal preaching, cajoling, chastising, the Mormons are normally quite offended and demand that it cease and desist. It’s a microcosm of our larger society – religious belief is accorded special, protected status, and to challenge or confront that is deemed unacceptable, militant, rude. (did you see the cartoon GoodK shared?)

ZLMB was a good demonstration of this reality. The board was set up to have unbiased rules and moderation, as a direct reaction to the injustice of the Tanner’s old board. Many, if not most, Mormons chafed at this. They kept trying to find ways to accord religious belief special status that would be denied nonbelief. One of the silliest attempts was to state that “positive beliefs” automatically deserved respect while “negative beliefs” had no such right or expectation.

We exmormons understand this reality, and do suck it up, by and large, in order to maintain familial relations. But Gad is right – the relations we maintain through this devil’s bargain are more superficial thanks to the bargain. Yet we understand that those of us who can maintain somewhat friendly relations with Mormon family are lucky to be able to do so. Do you realize how sad that is? I feel lucky that my family is willing to have this type of relationship – the one where they get to preach at me, send me faith promoting material in the hopes of changing my mind, or manipulate other situations to try and “reach” me. The same one where I have to smile and suck it up when they do so. Thankfully, they do so much less than they use to, but it still happens. Now, if I were doing this – if I were preaching, sending them “anti” material in the hopes of changing their mind, manipulating situations to try and “reach” them, our relationship would have ended long ago. The result is, although I love my family and they love me, we do have a somewhat superficial, controlled relationship. They only recently discovered that I’m an atheist. I’ve been an atheist for well over a decade, but our relationship does not allow for the exchange of that sort of information. The only reason I broke down and told them was because my atheist son – who was never really a Mormon, I left the church when he was around 6 and doesn’t understand the “devil’s bargain” – felt belittled by the type of statements my parents tend to make about religious belief and lack thereof. So it was my mother’s instinct that overcame my desire to maintain the devil’s bargain. And all I said was “look, I am an atheist. My son is an atheist. My boyfriend is an atheist. Please don’t make denigrating comments about atheists in front of us.” And believe me, I groveled and made it as unthreatening as I possibly could.

Our society is permeated with religious belief. It is everywhere, even where the law supposedly forbids it. The school where I teach, for example, has regular “reward activities” for children who have manifested good behavior, and every year has at least one or two that includes “religious” entertainment – like a team of college students who perform amazing feats of strength while discussing how it’s their faith in Jesus that gives them the strength to bend steel bars. I’m not kidding or exaggerating. My coworkers regularly send me emails requesting prayers, sharing faith promoting miracles, etc.

I suck it up. You know why? I have to. If I didn’t suck it up, if I actually requested religionists to understand that not everyone believes, I’d be viewed as a “militant atheist”. I don’t want to hurt the relationships I have with these people.

Do you understand what that means? Nonbelievers have to understand that they have to suck it up or hurt their relationships with believers. Do you understand what that says about believers and their sense of entitlement and privilege???

Frankly, I get sick of it. It’s tiring. It’s demeaning. And it’s the reason why I come to this board and VENT. It took me a while to understand that this was my motivation. This board is the one place where I don’t have to suck it up, and I can actually be frank and honest with believers about what I think of their belief.

That is what GoodK was doing, and the fact that you couldn’t tolerate it and had to drag it into his real life demonstrates how little you understand the “devil’s bargain” we nonbelievers live with every day. And your dismissive response to Gad’s post demonstrates how little you care about that devil’s bargain, even when it is pointed out to you. You are just like the other believers – your sense of religious entitlement and privilege is so deeply engrained that you cannot imagine it being any other way. It is the natural order of the universe.

What is ridiculous about this is that we’re not asking that you abandon your beliefs (with few exceptions) – we’re just asking that you quit pushing your beliefs on us, and creating relationships in which we have to tolerate that pushing to be able to maintain ANY relationship with the people we love.

Now I predict that you will respond to my post dismissively, just like you did with Gad, probably by saying something like: yes, we all know I am a malicious, entitled, and privileged person.

So I'll tell you in advance: thanks for not listening and proving my point.

OTOH, you could surprise me and respond in a thoughtful way. You do that now and then. And it does surprise me.

Beastie,

This one well thought-out post has done more to help me to understand the feelings of anger that I sometimes come across from atheists than anything else I've read previously. And it's because it's the utter truth. I've taken for granted that most, if not all of my friends are theists, but there may be one or two who are not...they have just never felt comfortable enough saying anything for the reasons you stated above. I get plenty of faith-promoting emails, chain letters, etc. (for a minute I was asking that they not be sent to me, I didn't like the commandment, if it were, to "forward this if you love Jesus". I'll forward it if I feel like it, dammit!). Some I forward, many I do not. But I've never really looked at it from the POV of someone who does not hold a belief in God, for the most part being assaulted by this, by other subtle forms of religious indoctrination. For so many people religion has become a habit that they think has feeling, that it's hard to see how their habits affect others.

Now I can understand a bit more what it is that I see and hear from atheists who are frustrated that religious belief is so prevalent in society that they cannot comfortably move. It's sad that you had to practically genuflect before your mother to soften the blow that you are an atheist. I'm kind of blessed in that my immediate family doesn't care what I do or believe, so long as I'm happy and stay out of institutional orange jumpsuits. The extended family is another story, but I ignore them anyways.

Thanks for your post.