In a similar fashion, a leftist Mormon who wants the country to surrender in Iraq, and retreat from the war on global Islamofascism, raises the specter of more 9/11s on our own soil, an escalation of terrorism, and economic blackmail by our enemies. He is my political enemy, and there is simply no possible reconciliation of these oppositional views.
Guess you and Crockett are political enemies since he is vehemently opposed to the Iraq war. I believe he would also differ from you on illegal immigrants as well. So next time he is here please tell the good bishop he is not a good LDSer.
by the way, there is no way you can fit this preemptive war into D&C 98. On this ground alone the LDS Church should oppose it.
Guess you and Crockett are political enemies since he is vehemently opposed to the Iraq war. I believe he would also differ from you on illegal immigrants as well. So next time he is here please tell the good bishop he is not a good LDSer.
by the way, there is no way you can fit this preemptive war into D&C 98. On this ground alone the LDS Church should oppose it.
And what part of D&C 98, pray tell, requires opposition to the defense of our country and our allies, including Israel, by preempting further and more catastrophic violence in the future?
Further, I don't just read D&C 98, but all of the scriptures as a corpus. Isolating passages of scripture can always work when one wants to prove some notion not specifically or obviously applicable to the larger scriptural record as a whole.
Let's say we did not go into Iraq at all. Saddam, as we know he had planned, reconstitutes his WMD program after milking the Oil for Food program for billions with the connivance of France, Russia, and Germany. The terrorism camps continue operating and his unofficial partnership with Al Quada continues (dating from around 1993, when first contacts were made). Then, one day, a WMD attack occurs on American soil. Thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands are killed. Or, a small nuke or bioweapon is unleashed in Israel.
Question: what scripture do you quote to someone like me then?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
one's politics are, more than anything else, a barometer of what lies in the soul.
That's because your gospel hobby is politics. For a vegatarian, what lies in the soul might be best comprehended by what one eats. You can't find any scriptures to back this up Coggins. Sure, you can strain and over interpret, but there are no scriptures, no conference talks, no statements by the brethren which declare what you've wrote. You are a fanatical, semi-delusional, gospel hobbyist who looks past the mark for salvation in "conservative" ideals rather than in Jesus. You've completely strayed from the basic principles of the gospel, and you are in great need of repentence for this.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
Saddam, as we know he had planned, reconstitutes his WMD program after milking the Oil for Food program for billions with the connivance of France, Russia, and Germany.
He had no program.
The terrorism camps continue operating and his unofficial partnership with Al Quada continues (dating from around 1993, when first contacts were made).
Al-Qaeda hated Saddam Hussein.
Then, one day, a WMD attack occurs on American soil. Thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands are killed.
Something like... 4,100 Americans killed, 25,000 wounded, and over a trillion dollars of our treasurey wasted, and the devaluation of our dollar achieved?
Or, a small nuke or bioweapon is unleashed in Israel.
You mean like Iran, the one that was contained with Saddam emplaced (who put him there again?), wants to do?
Question: what scripture do you quote to someone like me then?
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
You, Sir, are woefully too trusting in this folly known as Iraq. What a shame for us all.
Guess you and Crockett are political enemies since he is vehemently opposed to the Iraq war. I believe he would also differ from you on illegal immigrants as well. So next time he is here please tell the good bishop he is not a good LDSer.
Yes, we would be strongly opposed to each other on those issues. Is he not a faithful Saint? That would not hinge on his opposition to the war, but more on his reasons for it. The modern American Left desires a humiliating defeat for us in that war, just as they did in Vietnam. They want to see us defeated because they want to see our institutions, especially our prosperity, economic power, and free market economic order crippled, as well as our generally conservative Judeo/Christian social views and cultural institutions delegitimized. This is a matter of strong ideological animus. I acknowledge that there are reasonable arguments against the war, with which reasonable people could disagree.
The Democratic Party and much of the American Left are wallowing in the most viscous and irrational anti-Americanism fueled by a long held hatred of and alienation from their own country, its institutions and attitudes, and its military that is part of a deep ideological animus dating to the late sixties. This is the opposition to the war of John Murtha, Harry Reid, Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan, and MoveOn.org and the ensconced Left in higher education, the mainstream media, and Hollywood.
I don't see Bob as being a part of that aspect of the left. At least, I certainly hope not.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
In any case, I don't intend to engage Bob in any such arguemnts. I learned my lession long ago, at least as far as the Internet is concerned. I and the late Mark Schindler, a well known figure in LDS apologetics, ended as bitter personal enemies over political issues.
Mark was so far to the Left, and his views on fundamental issues so deeply in opposition to mine, that there was no possibility of anything but a deep division between us. One of us, to get along in the same room, would have had to moderate or massage his views to keep peace. But those issues were too deep and of too serious a nature (I'm speaking of very fundamental issues of economics, social organization, human nature, and the proper role and scope of government, not who should be dog catcher or quibbles over zoning laws) for any reconciliation to be possible.
The only thing to do was to simply never, under any circumstances, discuss politics. It didn't work out that way, however, as politics was dear to his heart. He once told me (I still have many of our messages to each other from Mormon-L) that some relatives of his once threw him out of their house, accusing him of being a communist. Well, there's the problem. Center left is one thing, but well into the belly of the beast is another.
Can a faithful Mormon be a believing communist? If so, then he can be a believing Nazi, Klansman, Anarchist, or neo-Pagan. The attitude among some liberal Mormons, in attempting to make room for their leftism within their Mormonism, seems to be that as long as you don't do it in the streets and scare the horses, Mormonism is compatible with virtually any other belief system, which makes Mormonism more of a New Age syncritistic amalgam of whatever floats down the river, rather than a straight and narrow path with distinct demarcation lines between it and other beliefs/values etc.
In any case, I have no intention of going there with Bob.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
Quote:
Saddam, as we know he had planned, reconstitutes his WMD program after milking the Oil for Food program for billions with the connivance of France, Russia, and Germany.
He had no program.
Quote:
The terrorism camps continue operating and his unofficial partnership with Al Quada continues (dating from around 1993, when first contacts were made).
Al-Qaeda hated Saddam Hussein.
Quote:
Then, one day, a WMD attack occurs on American soil. Thousands, or perhaps tens of thousands are killed.
Something like... 4,100 Americans killed, 25,000 wounded, and over a trillion dollars of our treasurey wasted, and the devaluation of our dollar achieved?
Quote:
Or, a small nuke or bioweapon is unleashed in Israel.
You mean like Iran, the one that was contained with Saddam emplaced (who put him there again?), wants to do?
Quote:
Question: what scripture do you quote to someone like me then?
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
You, Sir, are woefully too trusting in this folly known as Iraq. What a shame for us all.
This is just the final proof that you are far, far too much of an abject cretin to even bother with shock. Unfreakin' believable. That empty vessels like yourself actually walk around with voter registration cards in your wallets scares the living senseless hell out of me.
Couldn't you move to a country where education and knowledge upon basic, common facts of history are not required for citizenship. Say, Berkley?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
Quote: Saddam, as we know he had planned, reconstitutes his WMD program after milking the Oil for Food program for billions with the connivance of France, Russia, and Germany.
He had no program.
???????????
Holy Freakin' !@$#@@&$#@@!!!
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
That's because your gospel hobby is politics. For a vegatarian, what lies in the soul might be best comprehended by what one eats. You can't find any scriptures to back this up Coggins. Sure, you can strain and over interpret, but there are no scriptures, no conference talks, no statements by the brethren which declare what you've wrote. You are a fanatical, semi-delusional, gospel hobbyist who looks past the mark for salvation in "conservative" ideals rather than in Jesus. You've completely strayed from the basic principles of the gospel, and you are in great need of repentence for this.
No, its because politics is a life long study, and the political life of a nation is central to its moral, cultural, and spiritual constitution.
Try to enjoy the daylight Gad...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
I am familiar with Mark Schindler somewhat. From what I know of him he was a fine LDS. But based on this thread you would have expunged him from that category.
But I do not understand. You are quite happy to engage left of center people here. You want to engage me too, in your term a cafeteria Mormon. And I am actually fairly conservative though I to believe this war is and had become an abomination and the so called conservative president that launched it has, in my opinion, betrayed the conservative cause with this war and with other misplaced policy. Once again, it flies in the face of the modern day revelation on war, which I think in your mind ought to Trump the Old Testament passaged.
So anyway, I am certain that Bob would oppose you politically on many of the issues you hold dear. I know he would regarding the Iraq war because he has spoken out here. My guess is you might define him right out of being a good solid LDS. So if you won't engage him why engage anyone else here? Why the reluctance if based on your very own thread he might fall out of your graces. Is it because he is a defender? Or perhaps your attempt to exclude people who don't see things your political way is nonsensical.