Why I am not a Mormon

[_Droopy]

Horse manure. If you aren't, who is?

Why, you are Harmony. You, after all, know what the Church should be teaching, isn't that correct?

[_Droopy]

Jason, did you used to post over at ZLMB?

[_harmony]

Jason, did you used to post over at ZLMB?

Off topic.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I am not "the head of the apologetic arm of the Church."

Horse manure. If you aren't, who is?

If the Maxwell Institute were "the apologetic arm of the Church," it would be M. Gerald Bradford:

http://byunews.BYU.edu/print.aspx?relea ... n/bradford

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/isparts ... on&whois=4

If FARMS were "the apologetic arm of the Church," it would be S. Kent Brown:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/isparts ... n&whois=67

If FAIR were "the apologetic arm of the Church," it would be Scott Gordon.

Of course, there is no "apologetic arm of the Church."

This conversation isn't all about you, Daniel.

Still in the carnival funhouse! Look at all the distorting mirrors!

I agree that it's not about me, and never thought otherwise. In that light, though, I suggest that you stop trying to make it about me (e.g., "It's about access to church leaders; you have it simply because you live in UT and you are who you are.")

But back to the It's Not About Peterson Show:

You live in UT. That makes you a Utahn.

Obviously. But simply having spent most of each year in Utah for a while scarcely renders me incapable of knowing what things are like outside Utah, contrary to your claim that I'm "only able to judge what happens in Utah."

You aren't the topic of the discussion; our leaders are.

Then I suggest that you stop trying to make me the topic of the discussion (e.g., "It's about access to church leaders; you have it simply because you live in UT and you are who you are.")

The church outside of Utah may be the same, "normal" as you call it, but we don't have access to our leaders like members in Utah do. In Utah, Pres Monson dedicates a library at a state university and shakes hands with students who work at WalMart. That doesn't happen here.

Obviously, President Monson will probably never be asked to dedicate a library at Rutgers or even at Washington State. But that's irrelevant. The particular venue doesn't matter.

You're the one who used his latest experience in Orem as the example; that makes it relevant.

The fact that it was specifically at a Utah college library that President Monson shook hands with ordinary members of the Church is scarcely significant, unless you really do believe that President Monson would refuse to shake the hands of ordinary members of the Church at a college library that didn't happen to be in Utah, or that he only shakes the hands of ordinary Church members at college library dedications.

I said they are not approachable nor are they accessible, to the average member of the church in the mission field.

When they're in area A in the mission field, they're just as accessible as they are in area B, in Utah.

They don't dedicate libraries here

Irrelevant. They do plenty other things outside of Utah, including (but not limited to) scores and scores of stake conferences each year.

they don't visit wards here

If they're in the mission field and not attending a stake conference, they most certainly do.

they don't meet with ordinary members here

Yes they do.

and they're surrounded by security when they are here.

No they're not.

Years ago, probably 35 years or more, we had an apostle come and dedicate the addition to our building. It was LeGrande Richards. He was awesome. He talked to everyone, shook hands with the smallest child, patted a very pregnant woman on the back (that was me). He was approachable. He had no security with him; he wasn't afraid of us and no one was afraid of us for him. That was 35 years ago. Things change.

But not that thing.

When Elder Nelson came to my stake conference late last year, he talked to everyone, shook hands with anybody interested in shaking hands, had no security with him, wasn't afraid of anybody, and inspired fear in nobody.

Now, unless you seriously want to suggest that, somehow, mysteriously, Elder Nelson clams up at the state line, develops a phobia against shaking hands when he leaves Utah, picks up a platoon of Secret Service agents at the "Leaving Utah" sign, and becomes both paranoid and menacing when he breathes non-Utah air, there is no reason to believe that his demeanor changes dramatically for the worse when he goes to Washington State, Virginia, California, Illinois, Brazil, or Scotland.

Here they're transported in limos with security in cars ahead and behind. They don't stay any longer than they have to. And they don't interact with anyone they don't have to.

Where do you live? Beirut?

Were I or any other ordinary member to approach them, security would step in and we'd be escorted out.

BS.

You said your ward gets visited by Elder Perry.

Every year or two. When he has no weekend traveling assignment. Because he has a sister here, and lives only forty-five minutes away.

No, they're constantly traveling the world meeting with local leaders, not the members.

Members of Ghanaian stake presidencies are members, as are Brazilian bishops, Japanese stake Relief Society presidencies, and Wisconsin high councilors. As are congregations at stake conferences in Oregon, Saskatchewan, Florida, Kansas, Tuxtla Gutierrez, Arizona, and Canton Bern.

We don't have a professional clergy, Harmony.

They live in Utah. The vast majority of the Saints don't live in Utah. . . . Not one of them lives outside of Utah.

Yes, the First Presidency and the Twelve, who work at Church headquarters in Salt Lake City, live in Utah. Usually.

I'm almost speechless. It is so rare that you concede that I'm right.

Even you probably find it hard to fundamentally distort a tautology.

The leaders of my Church, which is headquartered in Salt Lake City, live all over the world.

No, they don't. You just said the FP and the 12 live in Utah. Now if some of them actually moved out of Utah into the mission field, you might have a point. As it is, you don't. Our leaders don't live with or even near the vast majority of the Saints.

The Twelve live in what is by far the densest concentration of the Saints.

But I'm intrigued by this revelation that members of the First Quorum of the Seventy aren't leaders of the Church. Coming on the heels of your stunning disclosure that bishops and high councilors and Relief Society presidents aren't members of the Church, this latest announcement leaves me breathless.

[_harmony]

The Twelve live in what is by far the densest concentration of the Saints.

But I'm intrigued by this revelation that members of the First Quorum of the Seventy aren't leaders of the Church. Coming on the heels of your stunning disclosure that bishops and high councilors and Relief Society presidents aren't members of the Church, this latest announcement leaves me breathless.

Same ol' Daniel. I'd hoped you'd outgrown your tendency to exaggerate, distort, stretch, and manipulate. On and on and on. You only do that when you feel the ground crumbling beneath your argument. You know full well I didn't say that. It amuses you to distort what I said though. I said bishops are leaders; they aren't the run of the mill ordinary Primary teacher type of member. But then you know that.

You said our leaders are approachable. I say they aren't, not because they're elitist or arrogant, but because they are not allowed to mingle with the general membership. You say they shake hands with anyone who wants to shake their hand. I say they don't. You say your perception is correct because you know them and you've seen them do what you say they do so it's safe to assume your experience is the norm church-wide. I say it's not because you don't know what happens outside of your little world. You say they live with the highest concentration of Saints (in Utah). I say they avoid living where the majority of the Saints live (outside of Utah).

And on and on and on and on. You live in an elite world, Daniel. If you ever lived in the world most of the members live in, you don't live in it anymore. You're a bishop; you're a BYU professor; you're a member of a small group of apologists (even if you aren't the chief apologist as you claim); you have connections inside the inner circle of the FP and the 12. Those facts put you outside the world most of the members live in. Don't try to act like you know what it feels like to be one of the faceless millions; you're in an entirely different classification. You wouldn't know how approachable our leaders are (and do I need to define leaders again? that's the FP and the 12. the 70 are not on the same level as the top 15 at all), because to you, they aren't unapproachable. You have access. The faceless millions don't. We're told to not approach (and yes, whether you believe it or not, that is exactly the announcement that was made prior to starting our last regional conference). I can understand the announcement; our leaders are elderly and could easily be hurt or contact an incapacitating illness from thousands of members all wanting to shake their hand, but that doesn't change the fact that they are unapproachable to those same faceless thousands or millions. I can shake hands with my governor, exchange hugs with my CEO, have lunch with a rock star, but I can't approach my own prophet.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Same ol' Daniel. I'd hoped you'd outgrown your tendency to exaggerate, distort, stretch, and manipulate. On and on and on.

Coming from you, and on this particular thread, that's really funny.

You only do that when you feel the ground crumbling beneath your argument.

On the contrary. When I realize that I'm dealing with eccentric absurdities, I laugh.

I said bishops are leaders; they aren't the run of the mill ordinary Primary teacher type of member. But then you know that.

I know former bishops serving as Primary teachers. I know Primary teachers called to serve as bishops. I know bishops who are farmers and elementary school teachers and contractors and florists and undertakers and so on and so forth. They aren't some sort of separate elite.

You said our leaders are approachable. I say they aren't, not because they're elitist or arrogant, but because they are not allowed to mingle with the general membership.

And I say that's flatly false.

You say they shake hands with anyone who wants to shake their hand. I say they don't.

But you're wrong.

You say your perception is correct because you know them and you've seen them do what you say they do so it's safe to assume your experience is the norm church-wide. I say it's not because you don't know what happens outside of your little world.

My "little world" includes every inhabited continent and almost all of the fifty American states.

I say they avoid living where the majority of the Saints live (outside of Utah).

They live where their offices are. But they travel virtually constantly.

You live in an elite world, Daniel. If you ever lived in the world most of the members live in, you don't live in it anymore.

That's absolutely pure nonsense. My home ward isn't elite. The ward I serve as bishop isn't elite. My family isn't elite. My wife's family isn't elite. I live in the real world just as other Latter-day Saints do.

You're a bishop

They are roughly 28,000 wards and branches in the Church right now. That's a rather large "elite." And, if there are approximately 28,000 bishops and branch presidents in the Church at the moment, now many former bishops and branch presidents must there be? I'm guessing somewhere on the order of five times that -- so, more or less, about 150,000 of them.

you're a BYU professor; you're a member of a small group of apologists; you have connections inside the inner circle of the FP and the 12.

So? Elder Haight didn't offer to carry my boxes for me because I teach at BYU; he didn't know who I was. Elder Bednar didn't visit with the Japanese Saints or travel to Las Vegas with only carry-on luggage and no security escort because I'm an apologist. Elder Perry didn't come to talk with my son because I'm a professor. Elder Maxwell didn't travel without bodyguards because I worked with FARMS. President Monson didn't shake hands with my ward members because I'm one of nearly 1500 BYU-Provo professors; he didn't even know that they were in my ward.

Those facts put you outside the world most of the members live in.

Nonsense. The past bishops of my home ward, since I moved here, include a PE coach, an engineer, a small businessman, and -- my current home ward bishop -- a physical therapist.

My fellow bishops in my student stake include a retired elementary school teacher, a dentist, an accountant, three small businessmen, and a fireman.

Elite Mormon aristocrats, every one of them, if your bizarre view were correct.

Don't try to act like you know what it feels like to be one of the faceless millions; you're in an entirely different classification.

This is simply ridiculous, Harmony.

We don't have an elite clergy class.

You wouldn't know how approachable our leaders are . . . because to you, they aren't unapproachable. You have access. The faceless millions don't.

"The faceless millions"???

I almost feel like jumping to my feet and singing L'Internationale.

I can shake hands with my governor, exchange hugs with my CEO, have lunch with a rock star, but I can't approach my own prophet.

And yet my two nineteen-year-old ward members, who attend Utah Valley State College part-time while working at Wal-Mart, managed to do so without even the slightest problem.

But only, according to you, because they live in Utah, where the First Presidency and the Twelve behave like human beings, and because they're elite aristocrats.

This is ludicrous stuff, Harmony.

[_Trevor]

I once wrote and apostle-Elder Holland-an email about a very troubling issue for me. Something deeply personal. I received back a tender reply that I keep and cherish. In that note to I asked him to also express my love and admiration for Elder Maxwell. Even though I did not know him I felt an infinty to him. His writings helped me through this very troubling time. I also have had cancer and so did Elder Maxwell. Elder Holland must have passed my comments on to Elder Maxwell because about two weeks later I received in the regular mail a personal hand written note thanking me for my comments. This is another item I keep and cherish. Recently our area was visited by a President Uchdorf. I was able to chat with him one on one for a few minutes and was able to ask a question for a friend who is struggling with something. He asked me to bring this up if I had a chance to speak to President Uchdorf. He knew given a number of reasons that I may have more opportunity to ask this directly. I was able to and the comments and advice he gave were tender and heart felt.

Those are neat experiences, Jason. Thanks for sharing. Most of the leaders of the LDS Church I have interacted with were really good people, exceptional even. I have real disagreements with some of the things they believe, but I have little doubt that they intend to do the right thing, and that they do their best to do what they think is right. I am sure there are issues of access to the leaders, but I think these result from very practical concerns. It is impossible for 15 people to be accessible to every member of the LDS Church at all times.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason... you're a bishop

I am???

aren't one of the unwashed masses, one of the general membership. You're a local leader. You have access.

The letter I wrote to Elder Holland was as a general member.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, did you used to post over at ZLMB?

What is ZLMB?

[_truth dancer]

On the brethren:

I once wrote and apostle-Elder Holland-an email about a very troubling issue for me. Something deeply personal. I received back a tender reply that I keep and cherish. In that note to I asked him to also express my love and admiration for Elder Maxwell. Even though I did not know him I felt an infinty to him. His writings helped me through this very troubling time. I also have had cancer and so did Elder Maxwell. Elder Holland must have passed my comments on to Elder Maxwell because about two weeks later I received in the regular mail a personal hand written note thanking me for my comments. This is another item I keep and cherish. Recently our area was visited by a President Uchdorf. I was able to chat with him one on one for a few minutes and was able to ask a question for a friend who is struggling with something. He asked me to bring this up if I had a chance to speak to President Uchdorf. He knew given a number of reasons that I may have more opportunity to ask this directly. I was able to and the comments and advice he gave were tender and heart felt.

One member of the 70 I count as a close friend having come to know him when he was an MP in our area. I can contact him any time.

I think the brethren get a bad wrap often more than they deserve. While there may be this official position I have seen them interact with members whenever they are able.

Oh, and I do not live in Utah. I am about as far from Utah as one can get and still be in the USA.

Hi Jason,

Personally, I think the Brethren are just regular older men who may or may not give decent advice, who may or may not speak truth, who may or may not be in touch with the world, who may or may not have any sort of communion with the divine or sacred, (like most other men and women), so I don't particularly care one way or the other, nevertheless....

I think you will agree with me that yours is not a typical experience. The leaders have made it clear that they do NOT WANT average members to contact them. A letter was written by the First Presidency, read in Sacrament Meeting to make sure the members were aware of this policy. (I'm pretty sure this was not the first letter, If I recall correctly). Unless one has a high position in the church (or business, or some organizaton), knows someone in the leadership, is "famous", wealthy, or has some sort of accident while on a mission or something similar, the brethren do not respond to average members. You were one of the very few who got a response, (most likely for one of the above reasons), most members who write to the Brethren get their letters forwarded to local leaders where a bishop or Stk President will call them in and read a form letter from the church.

I'm pretty sure you know this is standard protocol right?

Of course there are exceptions to the rule, I've mentioned them above. But as we know, a few exceptions do not make the rule.

:-)

~dancer~