Why I am not a Mormon

[_antishock8]

One would think a couple apostles would be from and make their home in South America, Europe, Africa, Asia... Where the members live. Then one would think they would make themselves as accessible as humanly possible, constantly travelling and ministring to the Body of Christ. The closest thing to getting it right I can think of is Mr. Uchtdorf's selection to the FP.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason,

Personally, I think the Brethren are just regular older men who may or may not give decent advice, who may or may not speak truth, who may or may not be in touch with the world, who may or may not have any sort of communion with the divine or sacred, (like most other men and women), so I don't particularly care one way or the other, nevertheless....

I think you will agree with me that yours is not a typical experience. The leaders have made it clear that they do NOT WANT average members to contact them. A letter was written by the First Presidency, read in Sacrament Meeting to make sure the members were aware of this policy. (I'm pretty sure this was not the first letter, If I recall correctly). Unless one has a high position in the church (or business, or some organizaton), knows someone in the leadership, is "famous", wealthy, or has some sort of accident while on a mission or something similar, the brethren do not respond to average members. You were one of the very few who got a response, (most likely for one of the above reasons), most members who write to the Brethren get their letters forwarded to local leaders where a bishop or Stk President will call them in and read a form letter from the church.

I'm pretty sure you know this is standard protocol right?

Sure I know all about the letter and similar letters that have been given. I have a bit different perspective on it then perhaps you do. But I am just sharing my personal experience. I wrote Elder Holland as a regular member. He did not know who I was. I got a great response. I did not have high position, I did not know someone so you are in error on that idea. I was not a bishop, SP, HC or anything like that. I may have been a ward mission leader at the time if I recall. I just had something I wanted to write him about and did. He responded, and he shared some comments I made about another apostle who also sent a personal note. I bet this happened more than we think or know. In fact, a friend of mine whose wife cheated on him also wrote Elder Holland when he was going through a real tough time and he got a personal response as we.

So I was and am really and average member and got a response.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule, I've mentioned them above. But as we know, a few exceptions do not make the rule.

:-)

~dancer~[/quote]

[_truth dancer]

Well, based on what we know...it must go something like this:

The Brethren are really clear that they do NOT WANT average members contacting them.

When disobedient average members do indeed write them letters even though they are specifically told not to, they must send the vast majority of letters to the local leaders and maybe pick one or two a month (or something) to answer. You won the lottery. ;-)

Still, the point is, the brethren do not want average members to contact them.


~dancer~

[_GoodK]

Let's perform an experiment. I am going to edit the OP and format a little and send it as a letter to President Monson. Let's see what sort of response I get. Any one know what address I should send it to?

[_Jason Bourne]

Well, based on what we know...it must go something like this:

The Brethren are really clear that they do NOT WANT average members contacting them.

When disobedient average members do indeed write them letters even though they are specifically told not to, they must send the vast majority of letters to the local leaders and maybe pick one or two a month (or something) to answer. You won the lottery. ;-)

Still, the point is, the brethren do not want average members to contact them.


~dancer~

How many members do you know that have written GAs and not gotten a response or had the letter sent back to local leaders?

[_Daniel Peterson]

The fact that the First Presidency has discouraged members at large from sending inquiries and requests to its office is quite unrelated to the claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve only travel outside of Utah in armed convoys and surrounded by phalanxes of security personnel and that Mormon peasants who live outside the borders of Utah, Harmony's "faceless millions," are driven away by Church Security goons if they so much as try to approach Church leaders.

As Trevor correctly points out, the former is simply a matter of practical reality: The First Presidency, as such, simply cannot respond to what I assume would otherwise be (and probably still is) a deluge of mail often asking pretty simple doctrinal questions, looking for historical information, gathering quotes for a term paper, seeking marital counsel or child-rearing advice, requesting personal blessings, hoping for special favors (e.g., a temple sealing performed by President Monson), and the like. Moreover, they should not be involved in such matters, on the whole. To the extent that such issues can be handled on lower ecclesiastical levels, they probably should be -- in line with what is sometimes called the principle of "subsidiarity."

[_GoodK]

The fact that the First Presidency has discouraged members at large from sending inquiries and requests to its office is quite unrelated to the claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve only travel outside of Utah in armed convoys and surrounded by phalanxes of security personnel and that Mormon peasants who live outside the borders of Utah, Harmony's "faceless millions," are driven away by Church Security goons if they so much as try to approach Church leaders.

The claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve only travel outside of Utah in armed convoys escorted by the LDS version of Big Black
is unrelated to the claim I made in my original post, that the First Presidency and Twelve are unreachable to the average, non-Utah Mormon.

I have a better chance of shaking hands with Osama Bin Laden.

[_harmony]

This is ludicrous stuff, Harmony.

I agree, Daniel. You completely discount anyone's experience that doesn't agree with your own. I know what I've observed. You don't, yet you feel comfortable in telling me that my life's experience is incorrect, because your experience is different. I'm comfortable allowing yours to be different, but I'm not willing to compromise my own observations.

You say our leaders are approachable because of the experiences you've had; I say they are not because of the experiences I've had.

Whatever. I'm the one who heard the announcement telling us that if we were to approach then-Elder Hinckley, we would be escorted from the building by security. I'm the one who observed that only bishops and their families, SP and high council and their families, and the choir were given tickets to the live dedication of the temple. We have over 10 stakes that this temple covers, over 60 wards here locally, and a very small temple. You do the math. Primary teachers were sent to the stake centers along with everyone else to watch it on tv. Pres Hinckley didn't come to our stake center after the dedication to meet the members, that much I can tell you, even though my stake is the one with the airport and the stake center is on the way. He was escorted to his limo and went straight to the airport. We might as well have been watching a dedication of a temple of SE Asia for as close as we got to the prophet. That was the 2nd temple dedication where I've been sent to a lesser room to watch on the ceremony on tv, while my bishop and his family were given tickets to go in the room with the prophet. And in my stake, we haven't had an apostle in 20 years for stake conference.

Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, Daniel. My experience may be different from yours, but it's valid nonetheless. They don't come here often, we don't see them on the street or at public meetings, and they sure as heck aren't approachable when they are here. They have a cadre of security sweeping the area clear and we, the unwashed, the non-leaders, are not allowed in the same room, let alone allowed to shake hands. We can watch from a distance or on a television monitor. What we can't do is actually meet them.

[_truth dancer]

How many members do you know that have written GAs and not gotten a response or had the letter sent back to local leaders?

Are you asking me how many disobedient members I know who have sent letters to the brethren even as the brethren have formally and clearly asked not to be contacted?

I personally only know a maybe six or seven, who have been disobedient, and they have all had the letter forwarded.

Now, if you want me to ask on RFM I'm sure there will be some good stories. ;-)

In fact I think I will.

Be back with more information.

;-0

~dancer~

[_Daniel Peterson]

You completely discount anyone's experience that doesn't agree with your own. I know what I've observed. You don't, yet you feel comfortable in telling me that my life's experience is incorrect, because your experience is different. I'm comfortable allowing yours to be different, but I'm not willing to compromise my own observations.

I've said absolutely not one word about your alleged experience with the visit of one apostle twenty years -- "twenty years!" -- ago. I do, however, think that your sweeping generalizations from that claimed experience are ridiculous.

I'm the one who observed that only bishops and their families, SP and high council and their families, and the choir were given tickets to the live dedication of the temple.

Stake presidencies and their families, bishops and their families, high councilors and their families, and choir members being elite Church aristocrats, right? And small temples being perfectly capable of easily holding "the faceless millions"?

We have over 10 stakes that this temple covers, over 60 wards here locally, and a very small temple. You do the math.

It's easy to do. And I've already done it. Small temple. At least ten stakes. The temple would have to have seating roughly comparable to a good-sized college basketball arena to hold everybody . . .

Primary teachers were sent to the stake centers along with everyone else to watch it on tv.

Just as I was for the Mount Timpanogos Temple dedication. Just as I was for the Provo Temple dedication. Just as I was for the Nauvoo Temple dedication. Just as I was for the Conference Center dedication.

One of my neighbors, though, manifestly a high-ranking Mormon aristocrat divorcee, middle school teacher, and soprano, sang with the choir for the Mount Timpanogos dedication and, hence, was able to be in the celestial room with President Hinckley. (Which, I suppose, left about 30,000 seats in the celestial room empty that could easily have been used by "the faceless millions," "the unwashed"?)

Pres Hinckley didn't come to our stake center after the dedication to meet the members, that much I can tell you, even though my stake is the one with the airport and the stake center is on the way. He was escorted to his limo and went straight to the airport.

I'll bet there were some other places he needed to go. How horrible.

They have a cadre of security sweeping the area clear and we, the unwashed, the non-leaders, are not allowed in the same room, let alone allowed to shake hands. We can watch from a distance or on a television monitor.

BS. Go to your stake conference. Unless it's held in a very odd stake center, I would guess that something on the order of 1300 of "the unwashed, the non-leaders," will be in the same room with Elder Oaks, that the stake center won't have been "swept" by security.

Of course, if you're late, you'll probably end up watching things on a television monitor from an overflow room. But that won't be anybody's fault but your own.

What we can't do is actually meet them.

Get there early, sit toward the front, and make an effort to shake Elder Oaks's hand. (If there's a Saturday night adult session, that would be an even better opportunity.) Unless he's simply got to leave, I would imagine that the first fifty or so people who crowd around him will get to shake his hand, that they won't be driven off by thugs from Church Security (who probably won't even be in the same county).