Martha Nibley Beck back in the news

[_beastie]

I agree that reasonable minds can differ over her book. Every time I've discussed this book I've said I really don't know whether or not Beck was molested - but neither does anyone else.

In addition, if reviewers are going to base their comments on an extrapolated inference, that ought to be made clear. Boyd's review does not make that clear, leading to frequent misperceptions about what Beck actually did claim in her book.

[_antishock8]

A hilarious polemic, primarily because of the right on satirical truths in tells about the liberal mindset. But Coulter is primarily a polemicist, not a political philosopher or analyst. For an excellent combination of polemic, cutting wit, and serious insight, try Mark Stein.

Mark Steyn in case anyone wants to Google him. Ironically he's referred as a polemicist, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn

[_antishock8]

Unfortunately, much of what you'll learn will be untrue.

Would you be kind of enough to enumerate the untrue points?

Coming from you, given the kindly way you've treated me here, the request is hard to resist.

Nonetheless, I'll simply call your attention to various reviews of Martha Beck's book by, among others, Greg Taggart, Boyd Petersen, Kent Jackson, Tom Kimball, and Tania Lyons. Here are some links:


http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=587"]http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=587

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=570"]http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=570

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=569"]http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=569


Tania Lyons's review is on line at the Sunstone website, I believe, and should be fairly easily found.

Well, I have a hard time believing the "recovered memory" crowd in the first place, but this one is too much for me. I haven't read the book, but I spent a good portion of my afternoon reading excerpts, reviews, and more than enough press coverage of Ms. Beck, for Ms. Beck, by Ms. Beck. She strikes me as a crazy person. While sexual abuse in the Mormon church is a real problem, as it is anywhere else, I'm skeptical of her claims since they're mixed with so many metaphysical revelatory experiences. by the way, here are some interesting and verifiable sexual abuse cases within the LDS context:

- On July 30, 1993, the Deseret News reported that "George P. Lee, former LDS Church general authority, is expected to surrender to authorities next week on charges that he sexually abused a 12-year-old girl in 1989." The article stated, "Investigators say he fondled the girl at his home and during official trips made as a member of the church's First Quorum of Seventy." Lee eventually pleaded guilty to attempted sexual abuse of a child, a third-degree felony.*

- In 1996 Lloyd Gerald Pond was arrested for sexual abuse of a fourteen-year-old girl. Pond hosted the Times and Seasons, a Mormon Church radio program. He originally denied any wrong-doing; however, he pleaded guilty on Friday, November 22 to a reduced charge of one count of forcible sexual abuse, a second-degree felony.

- In 1998 a Montgomery County (Texas) jury awarded a teenage boy $4 million in damages in a unanimous verdict that found the LDS Church negligent for not protecting the boy from John Charles Blome, a church youth worker and known pedophile. (Houston Chronicle, "Molested boy wins more than sought against church /$4 million awarded after Mormons found negligent," 10/9/98).

- In 1999 four members of the Mormon Church in England were "convicted of sexually abusing children after being caught during a two-year police investigation." Police said they made repeated attempts to gain access to documents from the church, but these "requests for help were denied as the American Mormons closed ranks to protect the English branch of the church" (London Times, "Mormons jailed for child sex assaults," 11/27/1999).

- In March of 2000, lawyers for the LDS Church and Raleigh General Hospital agreed to settle a $750 million lawsuit that accused the church and the hospital of failing to report a case of child sexual abuse. The settlement amount was not disclosed. In this case an LDS stake president who knew about the abuse conspired with other church officials, including the hospital administrator, to keep it secret. The LDS perpetrator worked for the administrator at the hospital (Deseret News, "LDS Church, hospital settle child-abuse case out of court," 3/29/2000).

- In 2001 the LDS Church was ordered to pay "$3 million to settle an Oregon lawsuit that had accused its leaders of failing to protect members from pedophiles within the church." Sandra Scott called her former bishop to warn him that her son had been sexually abused; however, the bishop told her that he already knew that the perpetrator had a history of abuse (going back to the late 1970s) but that he was repentant. "The allegations against the LDS Church in the Scott lawsuit were similar to claims made in past lawsuits, which have alleged church leaders have failed to warn victims' families or alert authorities to child abuse reports" (The Salt Lake Tribune, "LDS Church Settles Suit, Paying $3M," 9/5/2001, A1).

- The following year a child abuse victim identified only as A. Doe filed a lawsuit against the LDS Church claiming church leaders knew Mitchell Blake Young had sexually abused children for more than a decade when he began abusing Doe. Young had a long history of abusing children and was even sent home from his LDS mission after it was learned that he was molesting children in the Whitefish, Canada area. His activity was not reported to authorities (The Salt Lake Tribune, "Victim Sues LDS Church, Sex Abuser," July 2, 2002).

* I was always told that George P. Lee was dismissed because he "disagreed with the Bretheren" over some church matters. I had no idea that he was arrested for sexual abuse. This is the first time I had heard this. Crazy. Ya never stop discovering things about the Mormon church, that's for sure.

[_Sethbag]

I really have no idea whether or not Beck was molested. I hope not, but it also could have happened. I think LDS tend to just take for granted that someone of Nibley's stature could not possibly do something like that, but we must remember that every victim was abused by someone, and I'd bet a lot of those someones would surprise a lot of people if they were known, so who knows?

But I won't allow myself to latch onto something like this just because it happened to a faithful Mormon apologist and scholar. I personally have a very, very hard time accepting the whole "recovered memories" thing. For that particular reason especially, I'm willing to view Nibley in my own mind without this hanging over his head, and assume he's innocent unless someone can prove to the contrary. I cannot and will not take the word of someone whose memories were "repressed" and recovered at a later date through some kind of therapy or whatever. I just don't buy it. So while I'm open to the idea that Nibley could have done this, I am very skeptical of the claim that he did, and it would take more than we've seen so far to get me to the point of believing it.

[_beastie]

Human memory, in general, is very problematic. There is no doubt about that. However, many of you seem to be using the phrase "repressed memory" in a way that I'm not convinced fits what Beck described. Haven't you ever forgotten about a particular incident, and then either a smell, a visual site, or something else suddenly brought that memory back into your consciousness? I shared an example about my ex-husband already, so I'll share a slightly different one. I recently had the opportunity to visit the neighborhood where I grew up, several states removed from where I currently lived. It's been many years since I visited the state at all, and I don't think I ever went back to my childhood neighborhood once we moved when I was 11. It took me a while to find the neighborhood - there were things I remembered, like our pond - but there were other things I'd totally forgot. In fact, I found a different neighborhood and momentarily thought that was the right place, but something felt a little off. I couldn't remember what. Then, when I did find the right street, the first thing I saw was our old firehouse, that was basically a block away from us. Of course! As soon as I saw it, I could not BELIEVE I had forgotten about it. We spent many, many hours playing in the parking lot or field beside the firehouse. All those summer nights we'd shriek like silly ninnies when bats suddenly flew out of the top of the firehouse. How could I have forgotten?? It had been a prominent part of my childhood - and yet I don't think I would have remembered it had I not seen it.

Really, hasn't things like that ever happened to you all? That's what Beck is talking about. It's been a while since I read the book, but I don't recall her talking about some sort of hypnosis to "recover" memories (which I agree is highly dubious). If I recall correctly, her memories were triggered by seeing something she hadn't seen in a while (like the Amut picture).

I do agree that her metaphysical stuff increases my skepticism in general.

[_Droopy]

I really have no idea whether or not Beck was molested. I hope not, but it also could have happened. I think LDS tend to just take for granted that someone of Nibley's stature could not possibly do something like that,

And I know from long experience in forums such as this that exmos and countermos take it for granted that, if the charge is made, its probably true, especially if it involves fashionable victim status and designer psychological theories like Repressed Memory Syndrome.

[_Droopy]

A hilarious polemic, primarily because of the right on satirical truths in tells about the liberal mindset. But Coulter is primarily a polemicist, not a political philosopher or analyst. For an excellent combination of polemic, cutting wit, and serious insight, try Mark Stein.

Mark Steyn in case anyone wants to Google him. Ironically he's referred as a polemicist, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn

Yes, he can be. He's also a very smart and very perceptive guy.

[_Droopy]

I'm skeptical of her claims since they're mixed with so many metaphysical revelatory experiences

Interesting, because this was a feature of Sonia Johnson's claims as well.

[_Trevor]

And I know from long experience in forums such as this that exmos and countermos take it for granted that, if the charge is made, its probably true, especially if it involves fashionable victim status and designer psychological theories like Repressed Memory Syndrome.

Although it is true that Steve Benson and SLCabbie on the Recovery Board vociferously support Martha, I have seen a number of ex-mo posters disagree. I am among those Droopy is probably referring to in the categories of exmo and countermo, and I do not believe that Beck was molested by Dr. Nibley. I am far from alone in this.

[_Trevor]

Interesting, because this was a feature of Sonia Johnson's claims as well.

Which claims are those?