I find myself defending religion, at times, on this board. I'm an atheist, yet, have come to appreciate different religious beliefs and individuals that hold to these beliefs.
I read Essential Buddhism A Complete Guide To Beliefs and Practices Jack Maguire a few months ago and really appreciated many of the sentiments. I'd like to share something from it:
Letting Go
(a Zen teaching tale)
Once two Zen monks were walking together through the woods. They came to a broad, shallow river and began hitching up their robes for the walk across to the other side. Suddenly, a short distance away, a beautiful young woman dressed in wedding finery stepped out of the forest and paused before the river. By observing the troubled expression on her face and the way she paced back and forth, the monks could tell that she needed to get across, but couldn't without ruining her clothes.
The older monk said to the younger one, "I will offer to carry her across."
Shocked, the younger monk said, "But what about the rules? We've taken a vow of chastity! Why we're not even supposed to touch a woman!"
The older monk said, "And what about compassion? Just look, there are tears on her face!" Without hesitating, he went over to the woman, offered to assist, received her grateful smile, and helped her climb onto his back. Then, following behind the clearly disgruntled younger monk, he carried her across the river. When they reached the other side, he set her down. She thanked him, big farewell, and went on her own way farther north.
The two monks traveled on for half a day in silence, the younger monk scowling all the way. Finally the younger monk burst out to the older one, "You should not have carried that woman on your back. You know the rule!"
The older monk smiled, "Young man, I set down that woman on the bank of the river hours ago. It seems that you're still carrying her."
I'm not familiar, really, with any stories that are found in the Book of Mormon that may have lessons that are helpful to life. I know there are ones in the Bible and other religious texts. Are there any that you find noteworthy that you'd like to share? Anything you find noble or beautiful in religion you'd like to share?
This thread is for Doctor Steuss.
Aspects of Religion You Appreciate?
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_Moniker
- _Emeritus
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_GoodK
Leviticus 20:13 is my favorite Bible lesson.
1 Nephi 4:18 is awesome. Chop off his head if you hear a voice in your head telling you to.
So is Alma 12:17. If I had a child, I would read him this verse each night before bed.
Helaman 12:3 is splendid. How else would we remember God but by all the crappy things he does to us?
1 Nephi 4:18 is awesome. Chop off his head if you hear a voice in your head telling you to.
So is Alma 12:17. If I had a child, I would read him this verse each night before bed.
Helaman 12:3 is splendid. How else would we remember God but by all the crappy things he does to us?
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_Sam Harris
- _Emeritus
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- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am
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_Sam Harris
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am
I like Harold Kushner.
There are many positive aspects to religion, if you want to see them. I have learned that happiness is a learned art, just as much as seeing the good in that which has hurt you is a learned art as well.
In a forgiveness seminar I took, one of the things that stood out to me was that in forgiving someone, you let yourself see the good in that person that they may not have shown you when they hurt you. It can be done in religion too, but many people take the easy way of rage out; it justifies them and their behavior. Instead of seeing that they contribute nothing good and positive to their surroundings by constantly perpetuating anger and division, they say, "look what they did to me!", and use that as an excuse to do what they like.
I am not really a church-community type of person anymore, mainly because I can hardly be there these days, but when I was part of one, I appreciated the fact that I was made to feel like family. Not every congregation was like this, especially when I was younger, but in I've been to many who made the effort to see the person, not that person's failings, not their struggles. People were happy to see you not because of how righteous you were, goodness knows I've had many a person come up to me and relay a struggle, it was just that feeling of family...and you weren't screened on how holy you were prior to recieving love...contrary to some people's insistence.
I appreciate the aspect of hope that religion gives to people, and I do not see it as a weakness or failure if a person who has been struck with illness looks to something outside of themself for healing. Many cancer treatment centers offer as a part of their healing process a spiritual aspect, and I do not think that's due to indoctrination.
I appreciate the teaching within religion (even Christianity for those who have actually looked outside fundamentalism within the past few years) that it's ok to be imperfect, that doesn't give you license to just lash out and hurt people, but at the end of the day you are still a good person, and so is everyone else. We all make mistakes, that's because we're human. We learn that hurting people hurt people, and the best thing you can do for yourself and the world around you is to get right within, learn to cultivate peace and happiness, and your life will improve. Learn to let certain things go. As TD Jakes puts it, learn to accept the gift of good-bye.
When I attended church, I appreciated those teachers who spoke on issues that I as a person faced today, and didn't just read off random Bible verses. They applied their knowledge to what I and others would face each day, each week, and made us feel like normal people....not rank sinners.
I appreciate community. I appreciate people coming togther under a common thread for a good cause (not to just bash someone else), be it a cultural celebration, religious, hell a high school reunion. Even though I am no longer of my maternal grandmother's faith, whenever I show up, they welcome me with open arms and treat me like the lady I am...they do that with anyone who crosses the threshold of their tabernacle. I remember one thanksgiving I was with grandma that they cooked, opened the doors, and pulled people off the street, especially the homeless to feed them. They do this every thanksgiving, they do this at Christmas, even though they're Jewish. They know that there are people out there lonely and hungry on this day, and they don't care about the holiday, they care about giving. They're also building a home for seniors on the patch of land that their original prophet bought years ago, a place that will be low-cost to the citizens, if they have to pay anything at all.
I appreciate generosity. The last church I went to has a food drive weekly, and they have a ministry in which people volunteer to be available not only to distribute this food, but to be there to talk to and support anyone who may come off the street in need. There are many religious charities out there like this, and their main goal IS TO FEED AND CLOTHE PEOPLE, not just preach. Catholic charities is open to anyone, you don't have to be Catholic to recieve help. At least not in my area.
I appreciate the teachings I recieved when I considered myself Christian, that I was not some harlot, that I didn't have to be judged by anyone else but myself and who I saw God to be. I learned during that time that I am indeed beautiful, and no one can take that away from me. Yes, religion taught me that.
I appreciate those people who dedicate their lives to serving others in the ministry, most are not paid high salaries, many have part-time jobs to supplement what they do, if not a full-time one. But they love what they do, they love the people they serve, and they are passionate enough about their beliefs to place themselves in front of others in this fashion. Most of the spiritual leaders I have met have been kind and humble individuals.
I think the one thing that I appreciate these days is that contrary to popular belief, people are becoming more tolerant. I know there are folks who will always focus on the negative, but across the board, be the people believers in God or atheists, many people are taking the stance that there are more important things in life than fighting over religion, and they are learning that it's far better to try to understand one another than it is to work at perpetuating division.
There will always be people who insist that they are right, they do so out of fear, pity them. Think about what it's like to live in such fear of what comes next that you have to talk yourself into a fantasy about it. Think about that. I refuse to fight with such people. I don't know what comes next, I think that if I were to spend a great deal of time trying to find out, I'd be wasting what time I have left. I concentrate on making each day either as bearable as I can or as beautiful. And if there is a God, he/she/it/whatever will understand that.
It's not the vehicle you're in, it's the ultimate destination...which to me is peace.
In ancient Israel in biblical times, religion not only defined what was right and what was wrong, what was expected of people. It also gave people soemthing to do when they felt burdened by a sense of falling short of the mark and disappointing God. They would bring a sacrifice, a sin-offering, to God's altar. It's pirpose was not to "balance the books" with one good deed to offset every bad one, nor was it to bribe God to overlook their offense. Its purpose was to acquaint the donoer with his or her better nature, to let him say to himself, "I would like to be perfect, but I know I'm not perfect. Sometimes I am weak and thoughtless. But look: sometimes I can be strong and generous and self-disciplined as well. I am not a bad person. I am a person who often does bad things but more often does good things. And if that's good enoug for God, it should be good enough for me." And the sages tell us that in all of Jerusalem, there was no happier person than the man or woman who brought his sin-offering to God's altar and walked away feeling forgiven.
There are many positive aspects to religion, if you want to see them. I have learned that happiness is a learned art, just as much as seeing the good in that which has hurt you is a learned art as well.
In a forgiveness seminar I took, one of the things that stood out to me was that in forgiving someone, you let yourself see the good in that person that they may not have shown you when they hurt you. It can be done in religion too, but many people take the easy way of rage out; it justifies them and their behavior. Instead of seeing that they contribute nothing good and positive to their surroundings by constantly perpetuating anger and division, they say, "look what they did to me!", and use that as an excuse to do what they like.
I am not really a church-community type of person anymore, mainly because I can hardly be there these days, but when I was part of one, I appreciated the fact that I was made to feel like family. Not every congregation was like this, especially when I was younger, but in I've been to many who made the effort to see the person, not that person's failings, not their struggles. People were happy to see you not because of how righteous you were, goodness knows I've had many a person come up to me and relay a struggle, it was just that feeling of family...and you weren't screened on how holy you were prior to recieving love...contrary to some people's insistence.
I appreciate the aspect of hope that religion gives to people, and I do not see it as a weakness or failure if a person who has been struck with illness looks to something outside of themself for healing. Many cancer treatment centers offer as a part of their healing process a spiritual aspect, and I do not think that's due to indoctrination.
I appreciate the teaching within religion (even Christianity for those who have actually looked outside fundamentalism within the past few years) that it's ok to be imperfect, that doesn't give you license to just lash out and hurt people, but at the end of the day you are still a good person, and so is everyone else. We all make mistakes, that's because we're human. We learn that hurting people hurt people, and the best thing you can do for yourself and the world around you is to get right within, learn to cultivate peace and happiness, and your life will improve. Learn to let certain things go. As TD Jakes puts it, learn to accept the gift of good-bye.
When I attended church, I appreciated those teachers who spoke on issues that I as a person faced today, and didn't just read off random Bible verses. They applied their knowledge to what I and others would face each day, each week, and made us feel like normal people....not rank sinners.
I appreciate community. I appreciate people coming togther under a common thread for a good cause (not to just bash someone else), be it a cultural celebration, religious, hell a high school reunion. Even though I am no longer of my maternal grandmother's faith, whenever I show up, they welcome me with open arms and treat me like the lady I am...they do that with anyone who crosses the threshold of their tabernacle. I remember one thanksgiving I was with grandma that they cooked, opened the doors, and pulled people off the street, especially the homeless to feed them. They do this every thanksgiving, they do this at Christmas, even though they're Jewish. They know that there are people out there lonely and hungry on this day, and they don't care about the holiday, they care about giving. They're also building a home for seniors on the patch of land that their original prophet bought years ago, a place that will be low-cost to the citizens, if they have to pay anything at all.
I appreciate generosity. The last church I went to has a food drive weekly, and they have a ministry in which people volunteer to be available not only to distribute this food, but to be there to talk to and support anyone who may come off the street in need. There are many religious charities out there like this, and their main goal IS TO FEED AND CLOTHE PEOPLE, not just preach. Catholic charities is open to anyone, you don't have to be Catholic to recieve help. At least not in my area.
I appreciate the teachings I recieved when I considered myself Christian, that I was not some harlot, that I didn't have to be judged by anyone else but myself and who I saw God to be. I learned during that time that I am indeed beautiful, and no one can take that away from me. Yes, religion taught me that.
I appreciate those people who dedicate their lives to serving others in the ministry, most are not paid high salaries, many have part-time jobs to supplement what they do, if not a full-time one. But they love what they do, they love the people they serve, and they are passionate enough about their beliefs to place themselves in front of others in this fashion. Most of the spiritual leaders I have met have been kind and humble individuals.
I think the one thing that I appreciate these days is that contrary to popular belief, people are becoming more tolerant. I know there are folks who will always focus on the negative, but across the board, be the people believers in God or atheists, many people are taking the stance that there are more important things in life than fighting over religion, and they are learning that it's far better to try to understand one another than it is to work at perpetuating division.
There will always be people who insist that they are right, they do so out of fear, pity them. Think about what it's like to live in such fear of what comes next that you have to talk yourself into a fantasy about it. Think about that. I refuse to fight with such people. I don't know what comes next, I think that if I were to spend a great deal of time trying to find out, I'd be wasting what time I have left. I concentrate on making each day either as bearable as I can or as beautiful. And if there is a God, he/she/it/whatever will understand that.
It's not the vehicle you're in, it's the ultimate destination...which to me is peace.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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_Moniker
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm
GoodK, you're a party pooper!
Surely you appreciate Bacchus/Dionysus?
http://pretendingtofarm.typepad.com/pre ... 1884_2.jpg
Surely you appreciate Bacchus/Dionysus?
http://pretendingtofarm.typepad.com/pre ... 1884_2.jpg
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_Sam Harris
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 2261
- Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am
A nice little prayer:
Dear Lord,
So far I've done all right.
I haven't gossipped,
haven't lost my temper,
haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or overindulgent.
I'm really glad about that.
But in a few minutes, God.
I'm going to get out of bed.
And from then on,
I'm going to need a lot more help.
:D
Dear Lord,
So far I've done all right.
I haven't gossipped,
haven't lost my temper,
haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or overindulgent.
I'm really glad about that.
But in a few minutes, God.
I'm going to get out of bed.
And from then on,
I'm going to need a lot more help.
:D
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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_GoodK
Moniker wrote:GoodK, you're a party pooper!
Surely you appreciate Bacchus/Dionysus?
http://pretendingtofarm.typepad.com/pre ... 1884_2.jpg
Sorry Mon.
You know I can't help myself.
My atheism is growing exceedingly militant ;)
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_The Nehor
- _Emeritus
- Posts: 11832
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am
Unlimited power over the cosmos, eternal life in a perfect body, and an eternity of perfectly cooked steaks for dinner. My question is....what's the downside?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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_Ray A
Sam Harris wrote:I appreciate community. I appreciate people coming togther under a common thread for a good cause (not to just bash someone else), be it a cultural celebration, religious, hell a high school reunion. Even though I am no longer of my maternal grandmother's faith, whenever I show up, they welcome me with open arms and treat me like the lady I am...they do that with anyone who crosses the threshold of their tabernacle. I remember one thanksgiving I was with grandma that they cooked, opened the doors, and pulled people off the street, especially the homeless to feed them. They do this every thanksgiving, they do this at Christmas, even though they're Jewish. They know that there are people out there lonely and hungry on this day, and they don't care about the holiday, they care about giving. They're also building a home for seniors on the patch of land that their original prophet bought years ago, a place that will be low-cost to the citizens, if they have to pay anything at all.
Thanks for those very nice thoughts, Sam. (Matt. 5:9)