Martha Nibley Beck back in the news

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, I've read many discussions on Beck's claims between Mormon and exmormons. Exmormons definitely do not categorically accept her claims by any means. Some do, but there are many that have expressed the same skepticism as has been shown here. Those who suggest otherwise are ignorant.

Bob McCue wrote an interesting review. I haven't read all of it, but I thought the part on recovered memories was interesting. He cited a trained friend of his:

“There is a difference between repressed memories that spontaneously resurface, and
those which are "recovered.

“Repressed memory is a somewhat controversial topic. However, most psychologists,
especially those in applied fields, will agree that repressed memory is real (that's the first
debate in this area) and that repressing memory is a coping strategy for dealing with
trauma. Repression can occur to various degrees, but tends to only occur in situations
where the memory would be too damaging to the individual to deal with at the present
time.
So, it's filed away and forgotten until such a time as it can be more safely dealt
with. However, repressed memories of trauma can still be distressing enough to "leak
out" as other psychological symptoms. Children who are sexually abused are VERY
likely to repress memories of the abuse (more probably repress memories to some
extent than don't).
These memories often resurface spontaneously in adulthood when
triggered (by entering romantic relationships, having children, re-experiencing stimuli
related to the trauma, etc.) When these memories resurface spontaneously THEY
CANNOT BE CONSIDERED FALSELY IMPLANTED MEMORIES. These memories are
very likely to be accurate, even when minor details are called into question. This type of
remembering is not considered very controversial by most psychologists.

“This is different from "recovered memories." The common scenario for a recovered
memory looks like this. A woman with vague anxiety and depressive symptoms goes to
therapy. She initially denies ever having been sexually molested, but the therapist can
find no "cause" for her symptoms. So, somthat the client has been molested. The therapist may even recommend hypnosis as a
way to "recover" the memory, or some other technique. The more a therapist suggests
the abuse, the more pressure the client may feel to remember it, whether or not it
occurred. The client continuously recounts the abuse, adding new details every time she
shares the memory, until the memory is fully "recovered."e gung-ho therapists continuously suggest“

In general, any memories that are spontaneously recovered are statistically as likely to
be accurate to the same degree as any other memory, which is to say, only somewhat
accurate. However, memories of traumatic events usually have an accuracy that
exceeds that of other memories. Memories of trauma are also more enduring than other
memories. And there are certain aspects of traumatic memories that have been
empirically shown to have nearly perfect accuracy, such as a "weapon focus" in a
memory.
This speaks to a smaller percentage of false positives [memories of things that
did not happen, or “FPs”] in memories of sexual trauma, albeit indirectly.
“In the end, when all the literature on the issue of recovered memories of sexual abuse
is taken into consideration it is likely that there are thousands of [true positives –
recovered memories of things that did occur or “TPs’] for every one FP, and that the
general public's perception of this ratio is highly skewed. In general, it has been
empirically demonstrated that people have a tendency to believe that a particular case
involves a FP rather than a TP, due to cognitive bias toward victim blaming, in an
attempt to feel safer about their personal worlds. This bias has led to many social and
legal barriers for victims of abuse. … The fact that we place such emphasis on the
existence of FPs in the instance of sexual abuse memories, and not on, say, FPs in
memories of burglary (which are alarmingly more common, and empirically well
demonstrated, again refer to Loftus for more on this) is more indicative of social bias,
and social dysfunction than on the real statistical occurrence and social impact of FPs in
sexual abuse memories.

“When we compare the statistical likelihood of FP memories of sexual abuse, with the
statistical likelihood of TP memory being disbelieved, I think it is clear that, as a society,
we are worrying about error in the wrong direction.”



I keep trying to underline the difference between a spontaneously recovered memory (which I'm willing to bet everyone has experienced) and a memory recovered via hypnosis. From what I recall of Beck's book, her memories were spontaneously recovered. Others claim that she engaged in self-hypnosis, but I do not remember that being part of her book.

Bob McCue's review:
www.mccue.cc/bob/documents/Relief Society.leaving%2 ... saints.pdf
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_TAK
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Post by _TAK »

I thought the book was interesting - whether the molestation took place I don’t know – I think she thinks it did.

One of the most interesting aspects of Nibley’s death however is that the next LDS conference after his death, there is no mention of his passing. Maybe the old white men thought it did too.
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

TAK wrote:I thought the book was interesting - whether the molestation took place I don’t know – I think she thinks it did.

One of the most interesting aspects of Nibley’s death however is that the next LDS conference after his death, there is no mention of his passing. Maybe the old white men thought it did too.


Are you sure? If that's the case, then that's very telling...
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:I keep trying to underline the difference between a spontaneously recovered memory (which I'm willing to bet everyone has experienced) and a memory recovered via hypnosis. From what I recall of Beck's book, her memories were spontaneously recovered. Others claim that she engaged in self-hypnosis, but I do not remember that being part of her book.


Thanks, beastie. I like Bob's stuff. He is often wordy to a fault, but he is a bright guy who is dedicated to reaching the best conclusion using reason and evidence. My memory of her book is flawed, hehe, but I seem to recall that her claim was that her first recollection came spontaneously as she watched other abuse victims recount their stories. I also seem to recall that she spent some time excavating the full memory in therapy.

I would recommend to anyone who is interested that they read Susan Clancy's Abducted, which discusses the research into people's ability to manufacture memories or adopt mythological narratives, like alien abduction, as their own story. I think it is possible that Beck came to identify with what she was seeing in the victims of sexual abuse and then over time she manufactured a full blown narrative about abuse at the hands of her father. I wouldn't swear by it, but it's my theory at this point.

On the other hand, I could be wrong.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I think you misremember some details, although I could be the one misremembering. (I have the book, but I think it's at my boyfriend's currently). She first shared the fact that she's been molested at a meeting with survivors of abuse, but I don't recall that being the first trigger of the actual memory. If I recall correctly, she mad moved back to Utah and had sensory stimulation that triggered the memories (like the book, and there was something about fooling around with something in a cupboard, but I can't remember the details).

I'm pretty sure the suggestions that she engaged in some sort of self-hypnosis to mine for memories does not originate from the book. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, maybe she talked about it elsewhere, but I don't recall any of that in the book. I'll try to find it this weekend.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:I think you misremember some details, although I could be the one misremembering.


It very well could be me. I have admitted before that I was a student of Nibley's (in that I took some classes from him, not that he was my special mentor), and that I have a special fondness for him. This may influence my recollection.


beastie wrote:She first shared the fact that she's been molested at a meeting with survivors of abuse, but I don't recall that being the first trigger of the actual memory. If I recall correctly, she mad moved back to Utah and had sensory stimulation that triggered the memories (like the book, and there was something about fooling around with something in a cupboard, but I can't remember the details).


Yeah, I remember it differently, but I listened to it on audio book while I was in the process of interviewing for a job in Utah.

beastie wrote:I'm pretty sure the suggestions that she engaged in some sort of self-hypnosis to mine for memories does not originate from the book. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, maybe she talked about it elsewhere, but I don't recall any of that in the book. I'll try to find it this weekend.


I agree that the suggestions that she engaged in self-hypnosis did not originate in the book. The precise method of her therapy is a bone of contention. I tend to think that it did influence her recollection significantly, and that she downplayed its significance in the book. The book is, as far as I can tell, a very creative memoir. I feel it is in many ways true in spirit, but very loose with the hard facts.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

rcrocket wrote:I've read it.

I've also represented persons Martha threatened to sue over libel, so I was required to read and understand the book in detail, as well as lots more detail about her personal life (which she thrust into examination by threats of suit).

Let's just say that reasonable minds can easily differ over her book, and that it and what she claims have lots of problems.

I've read it, too. A lot of it rang true to me, other parts sounded a bit embellished given the writing style. Overall, I thought it was a good book. I hope Hugh did not molest Martha, and I don't know one way or the other if he did, but I do think that Martha believes he molested her (and, no, I do not think she simply made the charge up out of malice or greed). I've also read Taggart's FARMS review and thought it a piece of crap. I think I also read Boyd Peterson's review, but I don't recall what I thought (I'd have to read it again). I read the review in Sunstone and didn't think much of it (much was repeated from elsewhere).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_TAK
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Post by _TAK »

antishock8 wrote:
TAK wrote:I thought the book was interesting - whether the molestation took place I don’t know – I think she thinks it did.

One of the most interesting aspects of Nibley’s death however is that the next LDS conference after his death, there is no mention of his passing. Maybe the old white men thought it did too.


Are you sure? If that's the case, then that's very telling...


Yup thrown under the bus just two months later - April 2005 Gen Conf:

Prominent Members Who Have Passed Away since Last April

Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles; Elder David B. Haight of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles; Sister Marjorie Pay Hinckley, wife of President Gordon B. Hinckley, President of the Church; Sister Ruby Olson Haight, widow of Elder David B. Haight; Sister Dantzel White Nelson, wife of Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles; Sister Sarah Melissa Broadbent Paulsen Sorensen, former counselor in the Primary general presidency and wife of Elder Lynn A. Sorensen, former member of the Seventy; Sister Naomi Maxfield Shumway, former Primary general president; Sister Olive Eileen Robinson Dunyon Christensen, former counselor in the Primary general presidency; Sister Joan Blackhurst Spencer, former Relief Society general secretary.


First Presidency Expresses Sympathy

At the beginning of the Saturday afternoon session, President Gordon B. Hinckley read the following statement:

"We join those throughout the world who mourn the passing of Pope John Paul II, an extraordinary man of faith, vision, and intellect, whose courageous actions have touched the world in ways that will be felt for generations to come.

"The Pope's voice remained firm in defense of freedom, family, and Christianity. On matters of principle and morality he was uncompromising. On his compassion for the world's poor, he has been unwavering."
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

TAK wrote:Yup thrown under the bus just two months later - April 2005 Gen Conf:


I was sad at this omission. Whatever his faults, Hugh Nibley was one of the most significant Mormon intellectuals of the 20th century, and he was a thoroughly faithful one. You would think that the LDS Church would stumble over itself in holding him up as an example of faithful scholarship. If the failure to mention his passing at conference was an oversight, it is somewhat of a travesty that such an oversight could occur.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Trevor wrote:
TAK wrote:Yup thrown under the bus just two months later - April 2005 Gen Conf:


I was sad at this omission. Whatever his faults, Hugh Nibley was one of the most significant Mormon intellectuals of the 20th century, and he was a thoroughly faithful one. You would think that the LDS Church would stumble over itself in holding him up as an example of faithful scholarship. If the failure to mention his passing at conference was an oversight, it is somewhat of a travesty that such an oversight could occur.

I may be wrong about this, but I believe there is a policy to only include general Church leaders and officers (and their spouses), rather than non-ecclesiastical prominent Mormons. In other words, I don't believe that Hugh's omission was an intentional slight.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
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