Spalding-Rigdon Theory: Fatal flaws

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_marg

Re: May I suggest a challenge to Trevor, Marge, or anyone?

Post by _marg »

Trevor wrote: I believe that he had years in advance to construct the story.



Ya right. Meanwhile no one mentions him talking about such a storyline or book previously in all those years. He just kept in all in his head waiting for a good time to dictate.

If all he had to do was dictate, then why all the con props? Why not just dictate and do so out in the open where independent objective individuals could verify.
_Trevor
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Re: May I suggest a challenge to Trevor, Marge, or anyone?

Post by _Trevor »

marg wrote:Ya right. Meanwhile no one mentions him talking about such a storyline or book previously in all those years. He just kept in all in his head waiting for a good time to dictate.

If all he had to do was dictate, then why all the con props? Why not just dictate and do so out in the open where independent objective individuals could verify.


Actually, although Daniel and I have gone the rounds on this, I am still convinced that when Lucy Mack refers to him having talked to his family about the ancient inhabitants of America, after the visits of the angel, this represents the beginnings of the composition process. So, I heartily disagree with you.

The "con props," as you call them, represent the usual apparatus he used to mark himself out as a person with special abilities. If he had chosen not to use them that would be more remarkable.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

marg wrote:Unfortunately Trevor to discuss this with you in greater detail I'd have to pull out my web print-outs, my book etc and I'm not interested in doing so..at least not at this particular moment. I need to get some exercise, some sun and do things other than sit at the computer.

by the way, Trevor, you are wrong about the Book of Mormon being more popular that spalding's writings to these witnesses. At the time these witnesses were questioned the Book of Mormon was not a big deal, was not taken seriously by most people, was not the least bit significant to them. As an added note, one of Spalding's nicknames in town was "old came to pass"..none of his books available contain that repeated phrase. Do you really think neighbours, friends and family lied about this? Do you think this an implanted memory? This is the sort of data you are excluding, and there is more.


Well, people weren't coming to Smith's haunts with Spalding's work, were they? I think that says something. I am not excluding that data, I simply don't find it compelling. Enjoy your other activities.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Re: May I suggest a challenge to Trevor, Marge, or anyone?

Post by _Trevor »

jhammel wrote:by the way, I will add for the record that my "conversion" to favoring a Spalding/Rigdon explanation for Book of Mormon origins had nothing to do with this issue at all at the time. I was converted by the evidence in its favor, rather than any doubts of Smith as author. I will acknowledge though that Joseph's ability or inability to produce the book does have some impact on how much more likely I consider the Spalding/Rigdon explanation now, which explains my interest in the question. I used to think and say it didn't matter at all, but after reflecting on it, it really does, though it's more a matter of how much more likely is the Spalding/Rigdon explanation. In other words, if I were fully convinced right now that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon, I would still favor the Spalding/Rigdon explanation (though not as lopsidedly), but if I were highly convinced he couldn't have done it, then my favoritism of the Spalding/Rigdon explanation would no doubt be greatly strengthened.


I am more likely to believe that Rigdon was the author than to see Spalding in that role. I simply do not see the necessity for positing plagiarism here. People are perfectly capable of writing within a particular genre and having that writing bear a good deal of resemblance to other, similar works without plagiarizing from them. Might Rigdon have seen a Spalding manuscript? Yes. Might he have done much of the Book of Mormon writing? Maybe, although the historical evidence is decidedly sketchy on this point. The best evidence is that the Book of Mormon content seems to reflect particular doctrinal concerns consistent with Rigdon's involvement in Campbellism. I was impressed with certain points made by Vanick, and I think the complete dismissal of the work is unwise, but I remain, on the whole, unconvinced.

I am not a dyed in the wool opponent of the Spalding theory. I simply am not convinced. If Don Bradley would get his book written and published, I think we could put much of what is proffered in the Spalding theory to rest for good. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to share his findings (which I know sounds like a cop out, believe me).
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_marg

Post by _marg »

Trevor wrote:
marg wrote:Unfortunately Trevor to discuss this with you in greater detail I'd have to pull out my web print-outs, my book etc and I'm not interested in doing so..at least not at this particular moment. I need to get some exercise, some sun and do things other than sit at the computer.

by the way, Trevor, you are wrong about the Book of Mormon being more popular that spalding's writings to these witnesses. At the time these witnesses were questioned the Book of Mormon was not a big deal, was not taken seriously by most people, was not the least bit significant to them. As an added note, one of Spalding's nicknames in town was "old came to pass"..none of his books available contain that repeated phrase. Do you really think neighbours, friends and family lied about this? Do you think this an implanted memory? This is the sort of data you are excluding, and there is more.


Well, people weren't coming to Smith's haunts with Spalding's work, were they? I think that says something. I am not excluding that data, I simply don't find it compelling. Enjoy your other activities.


Your point was that the 'spalding' witnesses were or should have been more familiar with the Book of Mormon than Spalding's work and that is in incorrect assumption. It is irrelevant that people weren't coming to Smith's haunts with Spalding's work. The issue here is what were the witnesses familiar with.

yes I'm going to go now.
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Post by _Trevor »

marg wrote:
Trevor wrote:Well, people weren't coming to Smith's haunts with Spalding's work, were they? I think that says something. I am not excluding that data, I simply don't find it compelling. Enjoy your other activities.


Your point was that the 'spalding' witnesses were or should have been more familiar with the Book of Mormon than Spalding's work and that is in incorrect assumption. It is irrelevant that people weren't coming to Smith's haunts with Spalding's work. The issue here is what were the witnesses familiar with.


What I said above was what I was trying to get at, not what you are saying here. I don't think their intimate familiarity with the Book of Mormon or lack thereof is the issue. It is instead the fact that the Book of Mormon was more widely known at that point, and it is also possible that in the process of questioning these witnesses, specific contents of the Book of Mormon were used to trigger memories. It is one thing to ask, "can you tell me about the Spalding writings?" and another to say, "here we have a book that contains "x." Do these contents remind you of Spalding's writings in any way?"
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:I don't discount all the spalding witnesses Trevor they are simply highly credible and there are too many to discount all of them. It would be too time consuming for me to elaborate in greater detail the evidence pertaining to the witnesses. One the one hand we have Smith and a few friends who come up with a highly unrealistic story, who are motivated to concoct such a story in order to sell a book. On the other hand we have Spalding witnesses who didn't seek out anyone to discredit Mormonism. Some missionaries happened to come into their town to sell the Book of Mormon and a few recognized it as essentially the same story their deceased friend had told them. With greater investigation other witnesses who were not interested in getting involved, they were sought out, and when questioned remembered part of the Book of Mormon being the same as Spalding's work. The investigation may not have been ideal by today's standards but these witnesses were intelligent obviously honest individuals and i simply can not discount all their testimonies and think they all had false memories.(Emphasis added)


Note the following:

Regarding Sidney Rigdon's alleged involvement, Rigdon's son John recounted an interview with his father in 1865:

My father, after I had finished saying what I have repeated above, looked at me a moment, raised his hand above his head and slowly said, with tears glistening in his eyes: "My son, I can swear before high heaven that what I have told you about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] is true. Your mother and sister, Mrs. Athalia Robinson, were present when that book was handed to me in Mentor, Ohio, and all I ever knew about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] was what Parley P. Pratt, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith and the witnesses who claimed they saw the plates have told me, and in all of my intimacy with Joseph Smith he never told me but one story."



What would be the motivation for lying here, marg, on the part of Ridgon, or his son?
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ray,

The only two motivations that I can think of, and I don't know that marg will agree, are 1) to die with honor in the minds of his heirs and that 2) he suffered documented mental illness that would allow him to make such a statement and think it righteous.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ray,

What in your view would compell a person who presumably experienced visitation from God Almighty and an Angelic messenger to translate from Gold Plates bestowed upon him from on High and then set about to sell the copyright of the end product?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Jersey Girl wrote:Ray,

What in your view would compell a person who presumably experienced visitation from God Almighty and an Angelic messenger to translate from Gold Plates bestowed upon him from on High and then set about to sell the copyright of the end product?


That's another subject, Jersey Girl. Sticking to this one, here's what Richard Packham says:

ADDENDUM (January 1, 2006)
I have just recently finished reading the book by Wayne L. Cowdrey, Howard A. Davis and Arthur Vanick, Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?: The Spalding Enigma, Concordia, St. Louis, 2005, 558 pages, ISBN 0-7586-0527-7. This book is the product of over thirty years' research (the authors published a first version in 1977).

The book gathers together all the evidence to refute claims by Mormon apologists (and even many critics of Mormonism such as Fawn Brodie) who claim that there is no evidence to link Sidney Rigdon or Solomon Spalding's writings with the Book of Mormon. Rather, there is abundant and detailed evidence, presented here, that Spalding had written a now missing novel (NOT the one in the Oberlin College library) which had similarities in names and language style with the Book of Mormon; that the manuscript disappeared from the Patterson printing shop in Pittsburgh; that Sidney Rigdon was a regular hanger-on at the Patterson shop during the time Spalding's manuscript was there; that Spalding knew Rigdon and expressed suspicion that Rigdon had taken the manuscript; that Rigdon knew Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith by 1827; that Rigdon made several trips to the Palmyra area between 1827 and 1830 and even preached near there; that Cowdery had close family ties to the Smiths; that Rigdon was really the guiding light behind Mormonism; and - basically - Mormonism was based on a theft, a plagiarism and a religious hoax. No longer will apologists be able blithely to dismiss the suggestion that the Book of Mormon had its source in Rigdon's ideas and Spalding's novel.

The authors have done a meticulous job of examining old diaries, court records, genealogies, stagecoach schedules, local histories, contemporary newspaper articles and other contemporary sources to document their theories. Of course, in reconstructing events that have been the object of concerted efforts to cover them up, they have had to resort to some conjecture, but if one must choose between the authors' suggestions of a natural, human explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon and a supernatural explanation, the principle of parsimony ("Ockham's Razor") must favor the natural explanation, however conjectural.

I recommend the book highly, with only a couple of criticisms. There is no index. The foreward, by Rev. George Mather of St. George, Utah, is a sermon on faith, having nothing to do with the content of the book. It would have been much more useful if the authors had given us a little background about themselves and how they came to write the book. The authors frequently insert comments into direct quotations, indicating that the comments are by "the Editors" - one assumes that the comments are rather by the authors, but then why not say so? But those are just quibbles and do not detract from the mass of evidence collected here.(Emphasis added)


That's the crux of it, in emphasis. Without a "natural explanation", this one will have to do. But the atheist Packham isn't averse to speculation himself:

In the essay collection American Apocrypha edited by Brent Metcalfe and Dan Vogel there is a must-read article by Scott C. Dunn (pp 17-46) called "Automaticity and the Dictation of the Book of Mormon." Dunn thoroughly demolishes this line of argument (that an uneducated Joseph Smith could not have written it without divine guidance) by giving detailed examples of other books, as long, as detailed, as complex as the Book of Mormon, which were produced by authors equally as unskilled and unlearned in the subject matter as Joseph Smith was. It is a phenomenon called by various terms such as channeling or automatic writing.

One of the examples he gives is a book I came across when I first began really to explore Mormon history: Oahspe, which is a scripture-like book published in 1882 by John Newbrough. Newbrough had been visited by an angel and told to prepare himself for an important divine task by living a righteous life for a probationary period. He did so, and then was commanded by the angel to buy a typewriter and paper and to sit down at the typewriter and place his hands on the keys. When he objected that he did not know how to type, the angel said that he did not need to know how to type. The angel then proceeded to type rapidly the text of the book, using Newbrough's fingers. When I examined the book in the university library, I immediately thought, "This is just like the Book of Mormon!" (The Oahspe book is on-line here.)

Other examples Dunn discusses are Schucman's Course in Miracles, Edgar Cayce's books, Jane Roberts' "Seth" books, the Urantia books, Levi H. Dowling's writings, and - perhaps the most amazing example - the Patience Worth books, channeled through an uneducated woman named Pearl Curran.

Remember that it is not up to the critics of the Book of Mormon to "explain" it. I think of it like the magic tricks that the stage magician performs. I can't explain how the magician appears to saw the lady in half. But I don't have to explain how he manages the illusion in order for me to know that it's not what it appears to be. I still know that it's a trick. It's the same with the Book of Mormon. I don't have to explain how he produced it. However he managed to produce it, there is a mountain of evidence which says that it's not authentic. (Emphasis added)


http://packham.n4m.org/jsauthor.htm

Take your pick.
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