Why I Left / Breaking the News

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:18 am

Ah! Then it's Biblical illiteracy (on top of sin) that caused your downfall. Though known to the prophets (such as Deut 32:7-9) the Father was not really introduced to the Old Testament Israelites. Jehovah (Jesus) was their only God (the context of the Isa 40-45 set). And thus you have the name titles of Jesus, being the Father (creator and author of our salvation) and the Son.

But notice that Jesus himself has a God (John 20:17).

Your problem is not LDS, it's evangelical!

lol

Exactly. Kimberly, check out the work of Margarete Barker, or Emmanuel Tov (and/or others) on the nature of ancient, pre-exilic Judaism. Then educate yourself on the large corpus of ancient religious texts that have come forth in our own day, including the Qumran scrolls and the Enoch literature (and other important Jewish Pseudopigrapha), that retain the now lost "vertical" or apocalyptic Judaism edited out of the Old Testament record by the Deuteronomists and of which only fragments (Ezekiel, Daniel, the visions of Elijah, Job etc) remain.

You're a tiny frog in a very deep and spacious well with barely a clue to the larger world you're swimming in, and you have made a potentially catastrophic (from an eternal standpoint) decision based upon the flimsiest, facile understanding of the relevant evidence. If you're going to leave the Lord's Kingdom, then I think you should make at least a passable attempt at a compelling reason.

And far from being passable, this isn't even on the margins. Frankly Kimberly, whatever your real reasons for leaving the Church, I don't doubt that anything you could have latched onto, from the Bible or anywhere else, would have given you the pretext you needed.

I've seen this before.

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:20 am

You really are an ass,

And you, as usual, are so very, very sympathetic (which is good), and so very, very naïve (which isn't).

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:27 am

Everyone interprets the scriptures differently. It felt like the right interpretation FOR HER.

Oh wonderful. Full blown postmodern nihilism transferred to biblical exegesis. Have you really deteriorated this fare Liz?

This saddens me.

Post by **_bcspace** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:33 am

Everyone interprets the scriptures differently. It felt like the right interpretation FOR HER.

This logic makes God a liar and a respector of persons.

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:35 am

Jason Bourne wrote:

How so? The LoF chestnut is dead. What else you got?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Are you going to elaborate on the Isaiah issue or was that just part of the sham?

While I think they are incorrect and really do not understand the history of Israel's development of Monotheism, the two Isaiah issue and so on most , if not all Christians understand the passage the way KA did.

You really are an ass, BC. Even Nehor was sympathetic to KA's point of view.

Because I've dealt with this type of sob story before. I've read her blog. It's no different than any other. The basis she gave was incorrect, just an excuse to justify her actions.

It seems more important that you tell yourself this in order to avoid your own cognitive dissonance. But people really do leave the Church because they stop believing it, not because of some sin or not being able to keep up with the high expectation. Does that threaten you?

Monotheism was a creation of the Babylonian captivity, period. The sheer quantity of texts known to be missing from the original Old Testament tradition is really stunning, as are many of the teachings contained in those texts that give us a glimpse into the religion of pre-exilic Israel.

You're neurotic fixation on the LoF is becoming a real drag. Its old, its tired, its threadbear, and its just another one of your own rice paper thin pretexts for your unique kind of cafateria Mormonism

Dull, dull, dull.

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:39 am

I thought Mormons denied to be polytheists. Are you disputing this?

We believe in a plurality of gods, not in polytheism, you clever little provocateur you.

Post by **_Brackite** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:44 am

Droopy wrote:
I thought Mormons denied to be polytheists. Are you disputing this?

We believe in a plurality of gods, not in polytheism, you clever little provocateur you.

In other words, you are stating that Mormons believe in Henotheism?

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:46 am

Scottie wrote:
Droopy wrote:
I was immediately struck with the fact that I had been, for my whole life, a polytheist.

Earth to Kimberly: LDS are not polytheists.

You have a long, long, long way to go...

What are you talking about?? They worship God the Father, Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. Sounds like polytheism to me.

I don't know how long I may hang around here at this point, but attempts at doctrinal or philosophical explication of concepts such as this seem to become ever more futile as time goes on.

I suspect that, in reality, most of the intellectual denseness one finds here isn't really intellectual denseness so much as sheer hostility to the Church. Accepting LDS doctrine as LDS understand it simply pops too many bubbles and wrinkles too many templates.

There are three gods, each a separate individual. We acknowledge their individuality but worship them as one; we worship the Father directly, as an individual, but in so doing, worship all.

The countless other gods, worlds without end, that exist, exist, but are not worshiped. They have no direct relevance to us, or salvation or our eternal progression. Only in worshiping them would we become polytheists. We cannot become polytheists by simply ackknowldeing there existence.

Post by **_Droopy** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:58 am

Brackite wrote:
Droopy wrote:
I thought Mormons denied to be polytheists. Are you disputing this?

We believe in a plurality of gods, not in polytheism, you clever little provocateur you.

In other words, you are stating that Mormons believe in Henotheism?

No. Polytheism posits a pantheon of beings, each and every one of which can be worshiped alternatively, or simultaneously as gods with various functions or areas of control. In henotheism, there are many gods, but only one, (your own) is worshiped as the supreme god. One may still worship lesser gods, including the gods of the nations of others, but always keeping in mind that they are subordinate.

This is clearly not LDS teaching. The countless other gods that exist have no relevance to our progression and exaltation, we neither worship them, pray to them, or even, for the most part, think about them, except in the context of doctrinal discussion. We do not even know them, only about them. God the Father is our God, and Jesus Christ is our God and our Savior. There are no others "with whom we have to do" to use Brigham Young's phrase.

Post by **_Gadianton** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:12 am

Mormonism for all intents and purposes is polytheistic. there may be some quibbling. But the whole grain of humanoid Gods with beards who live on different planets as animals inside the universe and all that goes against monotheism. Even if Mormons only believed in a single man/God it wouldn't be "Monotheism" the way "theists" (book of John onward) believe in God.

Anyway, since Mormons do believe in man/Gods, billions of them and more, it would at least be a technical possibility for an entrepreneur to get lucky with his camera and go to work on a calander.