Opposition to Gay Marriage--is it necessarily hypocritical?

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Opposition to Gay Marriage--is it necessarily hypocritic

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I briefly scanned the replies. Here is mine.

asbestosman wrote:If I believe that X is immoral and vote to not legalize it, is this stance necessarily hypocritical?


No. You have a right to vote however you see fit.

I believe that people should vote according to their consciences. I am perfectly fine with Hindus trying to ban beef. I am fine vegetarians voting to make all meat illegal. I think they should all vote according to their consciences. I might even be willing to live in such a society, and if I was not willing to do so then I would move to a place with laws I could abide. Similarly I think homosexuals should vote according to their consciences.


Everyone should vote in whatever way they see fit. Why is this even an issue? You can vote according to your conscience, according to your evaluation of an issue or whatever way you wish. It is your right. Discussing it on a board like this is an exercise in futility.

But what of civil rights? What if someone thought that it was immoral for blacks and whites to mix? Do I still think those people should vote against it? That is a tricky question, and one I cannot easily answer.


There were laws against it that no longer exist. Having said that, if this specific vote were on the table, why is it a tricky question? You almost sound apologetic. You have the right to vote however you wish.

On the one hand, I do think they should vote according to their consciences. On the other hand, I think there are fundamental rights all people should have. I don't think that forbidding people to eat meat is on the same level as forbidding marriage. Yet I also think there is a difference between a governmental status and benefits being bestowed upon particular relationships (marriage) and actually forbidding people from associating together (you can share a home with any adult you please).


Yes, there is a difference between forbidding people from associating together vs holding "status" and extending specific rights. I, myself, am in favor of extending rights. I see no reason to deny anyone the right to hold property, joint health care benefits and such.

What if Mormons were on the receiving end of legislation? What if America enacted a one or two child policy ala China? What would I do? Would i fight for a "civil right" to reproduce as much as a please, or would I insist that it be left to the legislature and then choose whether to move to another country? Is this hypothetical situation different because Gay Marriage is about changing the status quo to allow something whereas my hypothetical reproductive limitation law changes the status quo to now deny something?


I'm not entirely certain what you mean by gay marriage changing status quo. It simply affords same sex couples the right to a legal union, to hold property, have joint health care benefits, and the right to screw up their relationship and fight it out in the courts just like heterosexual persons do every day of the week.

ab man...gay marriage (I don't like the word marriage here for traditional reasons) is NOT a threat to the sanctity of marriage as we know it or the family.

Hetero's historically need no help whatsoever in screwing up marriages or their own families.

Thoughts?


You pretty much got 'em in this post. I am dumbfounded by (primarily) religious groups who think that extending the right to legalize unions to same sex partners is in anyway a threat to the nuclear family (how many nuclear families do you actually think survive in this society to begin with?) or to the sanctity of marriage.

Up until this time, hetero's themselves who have the right to marry, hold property, have joint health benefits, etc. and their attitudes are the threat to this society. Homosexual's make up a very small percentage of the population in the US. Please tell me how anyone thinks that homosexuals somehow are responsible for the divorce rate in this country, the abuse of welfare and health care systems, and who is filling up the family therapist office?

Hetero's.

And if religionists think that gay marriage poses a thread, they might wanna look at their track record regarding hetero unions first.

Do you see what I'm saying, ab?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_asbestosman
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Re: Opposition to Gay Marriage--is it necessarily hypocritic

Post by _asbestosman »

Jersey Girl wrote:Discussing it on a board like this is an exercise in futility.

The reason I wanted to discusss it here was to see how others perceive my position.

I'm a bigot and a hypocrite. Lucky for me, that's still legal in this country.

Somehow I think it's better to avoid offending God than it is to avoid offending man.
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_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

asbestosman wrote:I'm a bigot and a hypocrite.

Trouble is, I don't really believe that asb.
...but if that's what you 'want' to be (or at least try to be), then - yeah - ironically enough it's a 'free' country. At least for some...
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Post by _asbestosman »

Roger Morrison wrote:Maybe you/others can inform me of what i should, realisically, fear by allowing this small minority of people to live with the same marital rights that i enjoy. Their doing so in no way interferes with my rights to my status. Please, no Bible stuff.

It isn't necessarily about fear. As far as I know it is illegal to desicrate corpses, but what do we have to fear from permitting it? Corpses can't consent? What if the person signed documents granting the permission to his dead corpse?
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Post by _asbestosman »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:...but if that's what you 'want' to be (or at least try to be), then - yeah - ironically enough it's a 'free' country. At least for some...

I wouldn't feel less free if the government stopped granting me the special status of marriage and all the rights automatically associated with it.

That said, I think it's appropriate for the government to grant special favors or benefits to things which are very beneficial to society. Indeed, without heterosexual marriage our society would be in a world of hurt. I can't imagine the world surviving without heterosexual marriage. I can easily imagine society surviving without homosexual marriage (no, I'm not saying I'm imagining a world where we irradicate all homosexuals--I'm against violence on this issue).

If that doesn't make me a bigot, I don't know what does.
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Post by _Ren »

asbestosman wrote:I wouldn't feel less free if the government stopped granting me the special status of marriage and all the rights automatically associated with it.

...so if your wife were incapacitated and an important decision needed to be made on her behalf (medical or otherwise), but you were not able to make it - even though you were her husband - you'd just shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh well, that's life...'?

That said, I think it's appropriate for the government to grant special favors or benefits to things which are very beneficial to society. Indeed, without heterosexual marriage our society would be in a world of hurt. I can't imagine the world surviving without heterosexual marriage. I can easily imagine society surviving without homosexual marriage (no, I'm not saying I'm imagining a world where we irradicate all homosexuals--I'm against violence on this issue).

Is the ability to make important decisions on behalf of a 'loved one' (to use one example) a 'benefit' or a 'right'?
...once we've sorted that out, we'll get onto the details of when / if they should be 'given out'...

If that doesn't make me a bigot, I don't know what does.

Sorry. If you're trying to sound like bc or Coggy, you're gonna have to try a lot harder :)
_EAllusion
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Post by _EAllusion »

Can you imagine a world without interracial marraige Asbestosman? I can. The onus is on the state, in so far as it offers rights and benefits, to have a sound basis for discrimination between certain groups of people.
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Post by _EAllusion »

asbestosman wrote:It isn't necessarily about fear. As far as I know it is illegal to desicrate corpses, but what do we have to fear from permitting it? Corpses can't consent? What if the person signed documents granting the permission to his dead corpse?


Provided there is no substantial medical risk to society at large involved with the corpse desecration, it should be OK so long as the owner of the corpse is Ok with it.
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:...so if your wife were incapacitated and an important decision needed to be made on her behalf (medical or otherwise), but you were not able to make it - even though you were her husband - you'd just shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh well, that's life...'?

No, but I'd be fine if I could get that right by signing the appropriate papers. Same thing goes with if I live with an aging relative or even just a lifelong friend in old age.

Is the ability to make important decisions on behalf of a 'loved one' (to use one example) a 'benefit' or a 'right'?
...once we've sorted that out, we'll get onto the details of when / if they should be 'given out'...

IANAL, but I consider it to be a right in the sensse that people should be able to sign the appropriate papers. I consider the benefit part to be the automatic bestowal of this to married couples.
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Post by _Ren »

asbestosman wrote:No, but I'd be fine if I could get that right by signing the appropriate papers.

...and paying the extra fee...?
...and then doing that a thousand times over for all the other 'rights' you'd be missing in relation to that person...?

If this was as simple as lining up 1000 different documents and signing them one by one, you'd have some semblance of a point.
But that isn't the reality of the situation...

I think it's very easy for you to say you wouldn't care because you're not the one that has to do it.

Same thing goes with if I live with an aging relative or even just a lifelong friend in old age

So you'll make these people jump through 1000's of extra hoops because you want to 'preference' heterosexual marriage - correct?

...is the idea that the person looking to have a legal 'union' in relation to their 'aging relative' or 'lifelong friend' will have actively kept themselves away from the possibility of 'heterosexual marriage' their entire lives because they were so allured by this 'other possibility'?!

Are you serious...?


This is the most tragic thing about this stance asbestosman: It will not change a thing when it comes to any related behaviors. Heterosexuals will continue being heterosexuals, and homosexuals will continue being homosexuals.

The idea that heterosexuals will want heterosexual marriage less just because homosexuals can marry is ludicrous.
The idea that homosexuals will decide "Meh - this homosexual stuff is a losing street. I'm going hetro!" is nonsense.
The idea that allowing people to secure 'legal unions' with a 'lifelong friend' or 'aging relative' is suddenly going to convince people that heterosexual marriage 'isn't that appealing' is ludicrous.


All this stance will achieve is leaving your neighbors jumping though 1000's more hoops (even if it's possible to jump through all of them!) because they are looking to have a different type of relationship recognised than you were.

Lucky you eh?


Asb - can you tell me why it was wrong to make black people ride on a certain part of the bus?
...they were allowed to ride on the bus. Correct? What 'right' was being denied them?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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