What is the point of faith?

[_Mad Viking]

Mad Viking: I'm not sure you took my theory with the sarcasm I meant. I don't believe Love holds the atoms together any more than Faith does; they are equally goofy, wishful-thinking, unscientific theories that aren't worth believing.

I got the sarcasm that was intended with the love holding atoms together thing.

The practical purpose of faith in Mormonism is to keep you from following through on your questions. Religions that utilize faith in the manner Mormonism does are well-positioned to retain followers in an age of free ideas and skepticism. Religions that don't, well, they're going to shed membership, like mainstream protestant churches are doing as we speak.

All of which I agree with. I suppose my question would have better served had I asked it on a board with more apologists. However, since many of us are ex-Mormons/non-believers I thought that I would pick the memories of a less hostile crowd. Maybe an elaboration would help.

Mormons believe that one of the purposes of this existence is to have our faith tested. Faith is extolled above any other form of belief or knowledge. One may come to believe (through LDS dogma) that the acquisition and maintenance of said faith is preparatory to what comes after this life. So my question (admittedly it is a philosophical one) is: What purpose does the faith acquired in this life serve in the next? And if it doesn’t serve a purpose in the next, then it must be an arbitrary requirement? It certainly doesn’t serve a temporal purpose like being honest does.

The fact that you are asking for what salvational purpose is served by faith (as opposed to logic and reason) is a good indicator that you don't belong in a religion like Mormonism. What's your current standing, BWT?

Not quite my question. I understand what purpose faith serves in attaining salvation. But then what. Does the purpose of that faith end at salvation, or is it a foundational tool that is actually used in the next life.

I am a non-believing Mormon of record. I have not attended in about 3 years. I have not yet figured out how to encourage my wife to question the faith of her youth without tension. Any tips?

[_Scottie]

MV,

I've heard arguments that say we use faith every day. I have faith that the sun will rise tomororw. I have faith that other drivers won't fall asleep at the wheel and cross into my lane. I have faith that my employer will actually give me a paycheck this Friday. I have faith that by disciplining my children that they will grow up to be upstanding adults.

I am a non-believing Mormon of record. I have not attended in about 3 years. I have not yet figured out how to encourage my wife to question the faith of her youth without tension. Any tips?

Does she know of your unbelief? If so, it's nigh impossible as everything you tell her will be "anti-Mormon". One thing you could try is to tell her you will sincerely read the Book of Mormon and pray about it in exchange for her reading about The Book of Abraham, or polygamy, or whatever you think would be the biggest crushing blow to her. Henry Jacobs is usually a good one.

[_AmazingDisgrace]

It's interesting that faith, as defined in the Book of Mormon, is logically impossible for anyone to have. Alma says, "faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true."

By this definition, for a belief to qualify as faith it has to:

1. Lack sufficient justification ("things which are not seen")
2. Be true ("which are true")

You can believe true things which are seen, but that isn't faith. You can believe things which aren't seen, and also aren't true, and your belief doesn't count as faith. So, if you've decided to believe a proposition that is not adequately justified by evidence or reason, then you have no way of telling whether your belief is faith or whether it's a false hope. If at some point you obtain justification for the proposition, only then can you retroactively claim that you had faith, prior to the time your belief qualified as knowledge.

So the statement "I have faith that X is true" ends up being equivalent to "I believe that X is true", and the concept of faith has no additional meaning.

[_Mad Viking]

MV,

I've heard arguments that say we use faith every day. I have faith that the sun will rise tomororw. I have faith that other drivers won't fall asleep at the wheel and cross into my lane. I have faith that my employer will actually give me a paycheck this Friday. I have faith that by disciplining my children that they will grow up to be upstanding adults.

I am a non-believing Mormon of record. I have not attended in about 3 years. I have not yet figured out how to encourage my wife to question the faith of her youth without tension. Any tips?

Does she know of your unbelief? If so, it's nigh impossible as everything you tell her will be "anti-Mormon". One thing you could try is to tell her you will sincerely read the Book of Mormon and pray about it in exchange for her reading about The Book of Abraham, or polygamy, or whatever you think would be the biggest crushing blow to her. Henry Jacobs is usually a good one.

I am sure that we are in agreement that the scenarios you mentioned are not description of faith.

My wife is aware of my un-belief. She admits that she has never really studied the church. Her typical response is to tell me that she doesn't have time to research it. She is busy. I tried to bargain with her early on. She didn't bite. I think she is bound to the church by tragedy. She has lost 3 members of her immediate family tragically and the hope of seeing them again weighs heavily on her.

[_Scottie]

I am sure that we are in agreement that the scenarios you mentioned are not description of faith.

How so? I can't think of another word that better describes those scenarios. Do you know of one?

Where is Cogs and his thesaurus when we need him?

My wife is aware of my un-belief. She admits that she has never really studied the church. Her typical response is to tell me that she doesn't have time to research it. She is busy. I tried to bargain with her early on. She didn't bite. I think she is bound to the church by tragedy. She has lost 3 members of her immediate family tragically and the hope of seeing them again weighs heavily on her.

Yeah, you're in for a tough, if not impossible challenge.

[_Mad Viking]

I am sure that we are in agreement that the scenarios you mentioned are not description of faith.

How so? I can't think of another word that better describes those scenarios. Do you know of one?

… I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow…

The belief that the sun will rise to morrow is not faith. This belief is based on emperical evidence that you have witnessed all of your life. Because of past occurrences you assign a high probability to its re-occurrence. Believing that the sun will come up tomorrow is about as scientific as it comes. It hypothesis that is based on observable occurrences that can tested. You can’t get anymore scientific than that.

...I have faith that other drivers won't fall asleep at the wheel and cross into my lane...

My wife’s brother was killed in just this manner. At the time I was struck by the improbability of this actually happening. His car and the other car were the only two on that segment of country road for miles. The other driver fell asleep (chemically induced) and hit him head on. The amount of events that need to line up just right to result in my BIL’s death are staggering. Not only did this individual need to take the chemical, they needed to leave their house at the right time, accelerate through the yellow light, choose that route to town, etc… just so that they could cross the middle line, right at the exact time to result in a head on accident with my brother in law. It seamed like an astronomically improbable event.

You are insinuating that the faith that such a bad thing won’t happen to you is the only thing that allows you to drive your car. For me it is more of a calculated risk. The probability of this happening seems low enough to risk getting behind the wheel. Faith has nothing to do with my calculated risk.

I have faith that my employer will actually give me a paycheck this Friday. I have faith that by disciplining my children that they will grow up to be upstanding adults.

These two are very much the same as the sun rising scenario.

[_truth dancer]

I find the whole notion of the need for faith nonsensical.

NO one thinks faith is a great thing... it is not faith, it is faith in their particular belief system that believers advocate.

If it were otherwise they would be equally pleased with faith in Zeus, Allah, Buddha, or any number of God beings, Deities, or even Goddesses heaven forbid. (wink)

No, believers think faith is only good if one has faith in THIER ideas, doctrines, or teachings.

Another point, the scriptures say faith is believing in that which is unseen but true. My question is how can one know if it is true unless one studies, applies her/his knowledge, reason, logic, sensory experience?

;-)


~dancer~

[_Scottie]

I can agree with your terms for the other 3, however, the last one I believe is faith.

Then there is also faith that we actually went to the moon, that Saddam was actually a bad man, that France exists (since I've never been there), that global warming is destroying our planet (or faith that it is just a myth), etc.

Much of what I read on the internet is taken on faith. I don't often dig deep enough to read the actual accounts. I have faith in certian people to deliver the evidences correctly.

Rockheaded has certainly made me question whether Joseph Smith really even practiced polygamy.

[_The Dude]

My wife’s brother was killed in just this manner. At the time I was struck by the improbability of this actually happening. His car and the other car were the only two on that segment of country road for miles. The other driver fell asleep (chemically induced) and hit him head on. The amount of events that need to line up just right to result in my BIL’s death are staggering. Not only did this individual need to take the chemical, they needed to leave their house at the right time, accelerate through the yellow light, choose that route to town, etc… just so that they could cross the middle line, right at the exact time to result in a head on accident with my brother in law. It seamed like an astronomically improbable event.

So is it true what my grandmother says? Coincidences happen when God wants to remain anonymous.

[_Scottie]

I find the whole notion of the need for faith nonsensical.

NO one thinks faith is a great thing... it is not faith, it is faith in their particular belief system that believers advocate.

If it were otherwise they would be equally pleased with faith in Zeus, Allah, Buddha, or any number of God beings, Deities, or even Goddesses heaven forbid. (wink)

No, believers think faith is only good if one has faith in THIER ideas, doctrines, or teachings.

Another point, the scriptures say faith is believing in that which is unseen but true. My question is how can one know if it is true unless one studies, applies her/his knowledge, reason, logic, sensory experience?

;-)


~dancer~

Great points as always, TD!