The Unreasonableness of Atheism

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I never said atheists were "less moral." Again, you're lying. The fact is religion serves a purpose because it teaches moral values. It doesn't guarantee moral behavior, but it is there to inhibit human nature from taking over. Atheists might be equally or more moral than some theists, but it cannot be said this is due to atheism since atheism teaches nothing, let alone morality.


As has already been pointed out to you, you are playing a game of semantics. You have clearly stated that atheists lack a “requisite inhibitor.” You state right here in this post that this means “inhibit human nature from taking over”. Requisite means necessary. So if religion provides a necessary inhibitor to prevent “human nature from taking over”, the logical result is that atheists, who lack that requisite inhibitor, allow “human nature to take over”, which means they are less moral. This has already been pointed out to you by other posters, as well, not just me.

The point, according to you, isn’t that “atheism teaches nothing”. It is that there is no “requisite inhibitor” to stop “human nature from taking over”.

So, no, you haven’t used the exact words “atheists are less moral”, but your statements mean the same thing. If atheists are NOT ‘less moral’, than your entire argument is moot, because no “requisite inhibitor” is necessary.

That isn't bigotry either, it is a simple recognition of the facts. Keep in mind that I brought up the latter point in the context of atheistic attacks on religious dictators. Somehow it didn't count as bigotry when people like JAK said religion is inherently dangerous to society. Where were you then? Oh yea, on the sidelines with your pom poms. Where was your protest of bigotry then beastie?


Heh. Bigots always claim they’re just “recognizing facts”. That’s what makes them bigots, Kevin. They believe these are the facts.

Yes, you said that atheists dictators are more likely to engage in violence against their people because they lack the requisite inhibitor. Which is what I attributed to you, by the way. And yet, according to you, I’m “lying”.

The problem is that you apparently have not thought through the logical consequences of your statements. If atheists lack a “requisite (necessary) inhibitor (to keep human nature from taking over)” then they are less moral than theists. It amazes me that you still argue otherwise.


Please cite a post of mine wherein I “pommed pommed” Jak or any other poster who said that religion is inherently dangerous to society.

by the way, you are going to waste hours of your time looking, because I never did. I have always been “on the fence” regarding whether or not religion is dangerous or beneficial to society, and have stated as much when I am involved in such a discussion. But good luck looking, anyway.

You're intentionally twisting what has been said and it is pathetic. I specifically said I am speaking on my experiences in these forums, and have never made a "blanket statement" about all atheists. And who the hell could dispute this? Just look at the crowd I'm dealing with.


See above. You are not just talking about this forum when you discuss “requisite inhibitors” and “atheist dictators”.

Kevin, it is laughable that you consider yourself more philosophically inclined than Gad and EA. Either one could best you blindfolded in a philosophical discussion – because, unlike you, they actually know what they’re talking about. I rarely try to enter those discussions because I recognize I don’t know what I’m talking about, in terms of philosophy, at least. It isn’t an area I’ve seriously studied or been trained in. You were around on ZLMB. Were you participating on the numerous philosophical discussions there? If you were, you should know better.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, dart, I keep meaning to ask you this question:

How does deism provide a "requisite inhibitor"?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

I'm sorry, but where were the "requisite inhibitors" when Muslim caliphs murdered 40 million Hindus, or made the streets of the Constantinople run red with blood? Where were the "requisite inhibitors" as Roman gladiators prayed to their gods before they went out to entertain with swords and gore?

That's a silly argument. If anything, religion offers a bypass to any inhibitors that are naturally there that prevent us from murdering one another.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

If I recall correctly, dart's response to this is that the frequency of blood-letting is higher with atheist dictators than theist ones. So, although the "requisite inhibitor" does not work every time with theists (hence the situations you describe), it still works at an improved rate than versus atheists, who have no requisite inhibitor.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

beastie wrote:If I recall correctly, dart's response to this is that the frequency of blood-letting is higher with atheist dictators than theist ones. So, although the "requisite inhibitor" does not work every time with theists (hence the situations you describe), it still works at an improved rate than versus atheists, who have no requisite inhibitor.


Wow. That's going to be hard to quantify.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Wow. That's going to be hard to quantify.


I would venture to guess almost impossible to quantify. So, basically, it's just an assertion without any solid supporting evidence.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_EAllusion
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Post by _EAllusion »

dartagnan wrote:Theistic justification? What the hell?


The fine-tuning argument is a well-known attempt at theistic justification. And unlike biological design arguments, it's by definition true that the designer would have to be a god. That's what the fine-tuning argument is - an attempt at theistic justification. One can get technical and point out there are differences between theism and deism and note that fine-tuning also works for the latter (though you specifically have argued that deism is a subset of theism, thus preventing that for you). But It think from context my point is clear enough.
And if you were serious about interest in philosophy, you would display more awareness of the various reasons why anthropic arguments for God's existence are generally poorly looked upon. Instead, you come off as the classic person who is a little familiar with fine-tuning from religious apologetics and thinks, because of those apologetics, that the atheist/critical retort is to believe a heretofore unsupported multiverse hypothesis to "escape" the argument.

Again, I mentioned this several times and none of you had a response to it initially. I haven't read any "apologetics" on this subject. I have understood the anthropic principle well enough and I consider it evidence strong enough to convince me that a God exists (or did you totally miss that this was my point?). Now, as expected, it is your job as the intolerant atheist to take upon yourself the duty to prove how my interpretation is based on a lack of understanding because, well, you know some atheists who don't see it as evidence for God at all.


I find it ranging between extremely unlikely and quite unlikely, given how you have defended fine-tuning arguments in your posting history, that you are not familiar with them as they are formally used to attempt to support reasonableness of god-belief. I find it highly unlikely you are not at all familiar with strong anthropic arguments, if only because you repeatedly reference advocates of them. In any case, you display scant familiarity with why they are by and large rejected by the philosophical community, and I think that says something about your assertions regarding philosophical inclination and religious belief.


Sigh... how many times do I have to say it? I am referring to my experiences here on these forums. Who could possibly argue that I'm wrong? Just look around and show me an atheist poster who has started a philosophical discussion about knowledge outside the realm of science. All I see in the immediate vicinity are science fanatics. Beastie even made the laughable assertion that the "scientific method" is the answer to our problems.


CkSalmon:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=5986

Gadianton:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=4007

Tarksi:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=2443

---------

And of course threads like these are philosophical in nature:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=6785

They pop up all the time.


I mean what atheist here is willing to grant that I have "knowledge" that God exists? You probably wouldn't call that "knowledge" at all, but someone approaching this from a philosophical standpoint shouldn't have a problem with granting me that. But you would, right?


Forgetting Gettier problems for a moment, the traditional understanding of knowledge is true, justified belief. Obviously I do not think you have knowledge of God in that sense. I don't think your belief is justified. Approaching it from a philosophical standpoint does not matter at all. Ironically, that betrays extreme ignorance of what philosophy is.

---------

When you start your thread, I would appreciate a reply to the reasoning contained in this:
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/super.cfm
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_EAllusion
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Post by _EAllusion »



And that was from 5 minutes of searching.

Edit: CK is a Calvinist. So forget him. The others I know are atheists.
_JonasS
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Post by _JonasS »

I definetly go for multiverses!!! whether they are parrallel in terms of exactly the same happenings but mirror imaging or not, I am not sure.
"HOW DARE YOU KEEP US WAITING!!!!! I demand you post right this very instant or I'll... I'll... I'll hold my breath until I slump over and bang my head against the keyboard resulting in me posting something along the lines of "SR Wphgohbrfg76hou7wbn.xdf87e4iubnaelghe45auhnea4iunh eb9uih t4e9h eibn z"! "-- Angus McAwesome (Jul 21/08 11:51 pm)
_Mad Viking
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Post by _Mad Viking »

Sam Harris wrote:
Mad Viking wrote:
That really wasn't what I was getting at. A poster (I can't even recall which one at this point) insinuated that because an atheist doesn't subscribe to the notion of a god that they would all lead selfish lives. As you pointed out, even believers act "morally" even when god is removed from the equation. As do non-believers.


I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. Unfortunately there are many theists out there who cannot imagine life without having a "higher authority" call them into obedience. It's really kind of sad, because all it does is show their weakness. You don't need someone or something else to tell you to be a good person, that good already exists within you, all you have to do is recognize it. At least that's what I believe. To me, seeing good inherent in one's self and another has nothing to do with theism at all...


Am I the choir or are you?
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
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