Our leaders

[_truth dancer]

I really can't tell Liz, because TD never makes any arguments. Statements of opinion yes, but never arguments, and without arguments, I cannot judge whetgher she is capable of rational discourse or not.

I'm not here to debate or argue Loren. I'm having fun discussing, chatting, sharing ideas, learning, exploring... I really don't care what others believe nor do I think others should view life as do I. In fact I am glad for the variety of insights and experiences on the board.

Suffice it to say, she has clearly never done the requisite homework or study of the plural marriage issue such that she could discourse intelligently upon the matter.

I've read quite a bit Loren... I just see the world differently than do you. As Liz said, just because I disagree doesn't mean I haven't read the material. You don't seem to realize people can see the world differently.

She can criticize and defame Joseph and other early practitioners of the Lord's form of plural marriage, and engage in great swelling moral condemnations of plural marriage (but not, curiously, other modern moral problems in the area of human sexuality) but not discourses intelligently on it, and I'm frankly getting tired of discussing Mormon issues with people not up to intelligent discussion of such issues.

Well, actually, yeah, there is nothing that will persuade me that the God of the Universe, the one who created the galaxies and stars and life itself, tells various men to screw/sleep with/take/own/use/abuse/marry/whatever girls and women. I have tried to go with this and believe it. It just doesn't work for me. As I said I put all men who make such claims in the same category. Joseph Smith isn't getting special treatment from me. (smile). And, I have and do speak out against other practices that I find harmful regarding human sexuality.

~dancer~

Thanks Liz! ;-)

[_Mahonri]

"Publicly denouncing Sarah Pratt as a "[whore] from her mother's breast" was not a high point in Joseph's career, but I think his resentment and sense of betrayal are understandable in context"

BS. Pure BS. You don't trash the reputation of another to save yourself. Bearing False Witness is what this is called.

If Joseph were alive today and proposed to my wife or daughter and I found out I would castrate the bastard and feed him his own balls. His 'anti banking safety society, started with Gods direction, was a scammers delight. So were his land sales in Nauvoo. His attempt at Bankruptcy and his friends paying off his many debts, time after time after time, show not only that he was a scam artist in many ways but that others thought this was OK.

If he were alive and doing this stuff today he would be doing it from a Prison cell.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

If Joseph were alive today and proposed to my wife or daughter and I found out I would castrate the bastard and feed him his own balls.

Mickey D's would call them McRocky Mountain Oysters due to their tiny size.

If he were alive and doing this stuff today he would be doing it from a Prison cell.

Oh like his modern likeness, Brother Warren?

[_Jason Bourne]

My point is ONLY that Joseph Smith was not well liked. That is it. I did not say anything about this being evidence for Joseph Smith being scoundrel.

Ok

I stated that the fact that Joseph Smith & co, were kicked out as evidence that they were not well liked. (Do you see the difference? I'm not saying folks didn't like him hence he must have been a bad guy).

Ok.

I'm not suggesting that polygamy was the only reason for folks to not like Joseph Smith... my point really has nothing to do with why Joseph Smith was not liked. The point is, he was not well liked and it seems to me that Joseph Smith was not looked upon by most non-believers as an honorable or decent man. (The fact that he was often kicked out is supporting evidence for this point).

Ah not you back slide. The fact that he and his followers may have nothing to do with how he was looked upon. I think it was often motivated by other issues.

I hope that clears up the confusion.

No I am not sure it does. So what if people think you are bad. Does that make you bad?

[_Jason Bourne]

Are you for murdering the FLDS Leaders and driving the adherents from their homes? I look forward to your answer and expect it now that I have asnwered you.

Where did I advocate murder?

The FLDS, are breaking established laws which forbid polygamy, just like the early LDS did(1833 Illinois law against bigamy). Both should be prosecuted equally, both as individuals and as an organization.

Disband them just like the good citizens of the mid 1800's tried to do with the polygamists by running the whole organization off the land which they sit upon.

Ah do you are not for murder but are for denying constitutional rights as well as property.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Are you for murdering the FLDS Leaders and driving the adherents from their homes? I look forward to your answer and expect it now that I have asnwered you.

Where did I advocate murder?

The FLDS, are breaking established laws which forbid polygamy, just like the early LDS did(1833 Illinois law against bigamy). Both should be prosecuted equally, both as individuals and as an organization.

Disband them just like the good citizens of the mid 1800's tried to do with the polygamists by running the whole organization off the land which they sit upon.

Ah do you are not for murder but are for denying constitutional rights as well as property.

What ever it takes to disband them. Just like what they had to do to stop the theocracy of Briggie.

[_Jason Bourne]

This is an interesting point. Does anyone who has studied this period know the answer to this question? I wonder if Bob or Blixa, who have both studied this period extensively, could shed some light on this with us and fill in gaps that we may be missing.

Why wouldn't Joseph's wife, children, and mother be immediate targets while the other Saints were drive out? This strikes me as odd

If I recall Emma and family intitally did move out of Nauvoo for a time. But I already made a point on this. The Church was gone. Its leaders had left Nauvoo. What threat could be perceived by the lawless mob from Emma and Mother Smith? None. SO why bother them? They had accomplished their nefarious deeds.

[_Jason Bourne]

(My latest comments in bold)

Jason,

My point is that the people of Illinois didn't drive the "saints" out.

And you are incorrect.

Actually it could be argued that the Saints drove themselves out. No one ever died from a threat

BY and his band (not the "saints") were lawbreakers. The law drove the band out.

What law? It was not well known that polygamy was being practiced? There was not law. Outlaws drove them out.

What law? The law of the land. Polygamy (adultery) was never legal in the US. Ever. Everyone knew of the rumors that Smith was committing adultery in the name of his God. Not everyone that wished him away was an outlaw or belonged to a mob.

The band put fear into the hearts of the "saints" to follow them.

Sure. I imagine being threatened, having your leaders murdered, and all the other "wolf" hunts were a bit nerve wracking. But the band was not BY it was the good citizens of Hancock county.

I refer to BY and Joseph Smith's polygamous band - a secret combination. And true, not all the "saints" were aware of why the world was liberated of the Smiths. The faithful "saints" unaware of Smith and Young's secret combination emphatically supported the brethren testifying that they did not practice Mormon adultery - pretty nerve racking for those not privy to the dirty little secret. To them it was persecution

As you may recall, Joseph and Hyrum attempted the same as BY when they fled across the river to the Rocky Mountains several weeks before Carthage. They were denounced as cowards, causing them to return to Nauvoo, contrary to the revelation of the Mormon God.

I know that Joseph Smith and Hyrum were leaving town sure. So what?

So what? There were formal and lawful charges brought against them. Their intent was to become fugitives from the law and leave the United States permenantly. That is why Smith was called a coward even by his only legal wife, Emma.

Smith understood justice, why else would he say he was going as "a lamb to the slaughter". The cause set in motion was unavoidable.

Wow. Once again you view mob murder as justice. You are a scary man. And irrational about things LDS.

I do not see him as a lamb, but a wolf. He knew he didn't have a snowball's chance of being aquitted this time.

See my previous post for comment on refering to me as a cowardly mobber.

Nothing at all above makes sense really given that circumstances. And if you do not like being compared to a mob stop proposing that the Smith's got what they deserved. They did not deserve death. Stop saying that they should have been locked up forever. Stop saying it was justice in driving people from their property and homes.

[_Jason Bourne]

I do agree that it wasn't the main issue in other places, like for example Jackson County. There were more troublesome issues than polygamy in places like that. Hmmm, weren't Mormons telling the people in Missouri that God had given them all that land? Did Sidney Rigdon give a sermon calling out a war of extermination on the state militia? Did the Mormon army attack and burn many gentile settlements? Were they preaching that believers were going to unify with the converted Indians to establish a New Jerusalem theorcracy? Were they preaching to destroy the wicked Gentiles? Yeah, that's not the kind of neighbor I would want next door. I can only imagine how frightened the people of Missouri must have been.

None of this happened before the expulsion from Jackson county other than perhaps comments about the land being someday Zion. Later yes the Mormons did fight back. Who can blame them? Were they perfectly innocent. No. But 90% I believe still is on the local Missourians. As for polygamy and Nauvoo it was rumored and started to get out. Still it was not the primary issue.

[_Jason Bourne]

Members with an explicit subjective need to believe are the only ones who struggle with Smith's actions surrounding his habit of having sex with women <AND GIRLS>readily available to him.

Conversely and quite obviously, objective outsiders do not have a problem understanding what was going on there at that time. Smith was simply a horny charismatic leader with women <AND GIRLS>at his disposal. He tried to stop cheating on Emma but sadly just could not. The whole charade of revelations about polygamy was his futile attempt to justify a personal habit that he could not seem to break.

I have a difficult time forgetting the girls Joseph Smith manipulated and coerced into his bed or his eternal harem, or whatever.

:-(

Sorry TD. I am not a fan of polygamy nor his sealings to younger woman and a couple in their teens. But I see no evidence that these marriages were consummated. When you have it then your outrage will have more meaning. Sorry.