Jason Bourne wrote:Still we lack evidence of sex with the girls. This is the only point I am talking about here.
This is the thread by which you hang your faith in Joseph, you HOPE he did not have sex with the Mia Maids and Laurels of his ward.
Ask yourself this Jas, what if he did have sex with these teen aged girls? Would your opinion of him change? Or would you fall back to the crutch of him just doing as god commanded him? Heck at least god did not ask him to hack of someone's head, so sex with some teen girls is minor?
Ask yourself this Jas, what if he did have sex with these teen aged girls? Would your opinion of him change? Or would you fall back to the crutch of him just doing as god commanded him? Heck at least god did not ask him to hack of someone's head, so sex with some teen girls is minor?
I've got a strong, strong suspicion that you are a pontificating moral hypocrite B&L, but that's just me.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
Ask yourself this Jas, what if he did have sex with these teen aged girls? Would your opinion of him change? Or would you fall back to the crutch of him just doing as god commanded him? Heck at least god did not ask him to hack of someone's head, so sex with some teen girls is minor?
I've got a strong, strong suspicion that you are a pontificating moral hypocrite B&L, but that's just me.
Please do not class me with your founder, Joseph Smith.
Jason Bourne wrote:Still we lack evidence of sex with the girls. This is the only point I am talking about here.
This is the thread by which you hang your faith in Joseph, you HOPE he did not have sex with the Mia Maids and Laurels of his ward.
Ask yourself this Jas, what if he did have sex with these teen aged girls? Would your opinion of him change? Or would you fall back to the crutch of him just doing as god commanded him? Heck at least god did not ask him to hack of someone's head, so sex with some teen girls is minor?
Bo,
After all this time you really do not understand me at all do you.
Sethbag wrote:2. He represented to people that a magic rock, viewed within his hat, would reveal to him the location of ancient buried treasure on peoples' property, and that for a fee he would show them where to dig so they could recover it. This was a blatant lie, and he never recovered buried treasure for anyone - but he did take their money. In this "business" dealing, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.
There is plenty of evidence that Joseph and his family and many of his neighbors believed that he had a seeric gift. Joseph grew up in a culture steeped in folk magic. I think he really believed he could see things with his "magic rock."
I would think that he 100% failure rate in using the seer stone to find buried treasure would have been a pretty good clue as to the quality of Joseph Smith's 'seeric gift.'
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Nevo wrote:I happen to think Joseph was sincere in his practice of polygamy.
I do as well. I happen to think that Joseph sincerely wanted to copulate with with other many women and polygamy gave him the religious cover to rationalize it.
Nevo wrote:Carmon Hardy has observed that
Joseph displayed an astonishingly principled commitment to the doctrine. He had to overcome opposition from his brother Hyrum and the reluctance of some of his disciples. Reflecting years later on the conflicts and dangers brought by plural marriage, some church leaders were struck with the courage Joseph displayed in persisting with it. And when one recalls a poignant encounter like that between William Law and Joseph in early 1844, it is difficult not to agree. Law, putting his arms about the prophet's neck, tearfully pleaded that he throw the entire business of plurality over. Joseph, also crying, replied that he could not, that God had commanded it, and he had no choice but to obey.
Men have for thousands of years taken enormous risks and borne enormous costs to satisfy their sexual lusts. Millions upon millions of men have risked death, divorce, humiliation, financial ruin, etc. for sex. Joseph Smith is no different from them.
It goes to show how far Nevo and Mormon apologists go when they actually try to portray rutting sexual promiscuity as some kind of nobel virtue.
Amazing!
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Sethbag wrote:2. He represented to people that a magic rock, viewed within his hat, would reveal to him the location of ancient buried treasure on peoples' property, and that for a fee he would show them where to dig so they could recover it. This was a blatant lie, and he never recovered buried treasure for anyone - but he did take their money. In this "business" dealing, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.
There is plenty of evidence that Joseph and his family and many of his neighbors believed that he had a seeric gift. Joseph grew up in a culture steeped in folk magic. I think he really believed he could see things with his "magic rock."
I would think that [t]he 100% failure rate in using the seer stone to find buried treasure would have been a pretty good clue as to the quality of Joseph Smith's 'seeric gift.'
You might think so, but Joseph was able to convince a good many people that he could locate lost or hidden objects with his seer stone. If he never found anything with the seer stone, how do you suppose he gained a reputation as a seer in the first place?
Nevo wrote:You might think so, but Joseph was able to convince a good many people that he could locate lost or hidden objects with his seer stone. If he never found anything with the seer stone, how do you suppose he gained a reputation as a seer in the first place?
I'm not sure this is a good point to make, Nevo, if you're in favor of Joseph. That he was able to con a lot of people only says something about the gullibility of those people, not the integrity of Joseph.
Sethbag wrote:2. He represented to people that a magic rock, viewed within his hat, would reveal to him the location of ancient buried treasure on peoples' property, and that for a fee he would show them where to dig so they could recover it. This was a blatant lie, and he never recovered buried treasure for anyone - but he did take their money. In this "business" dealing, Joseph Smith was a scoundrel.
There is plenty of evidence that Joseph and his family and many of his neighbors believed that he had a seeric gift. Joseph grew up in a culture steeped in folk magic. I think he really believed he could see things with his "magic rock."
I would think that [t]he 100% failure rate in using the seer stone to find buried treasure would have been a pretty good clue as to the quality of Joseph Smith's 'seeric gift.'
You might think so, but Joseph was able to convince a good many people that he could locate lost or hidden objects with his seer stone. If he never found anything with the seer stone, how do you suppose he gained a reputation as a seer in the first place?
Are you asking this in serious?
I mean, how many tens of millions of data points do you need before you conclude that people are, or can be, gullible?
Frauds, scam artists, confidence men abound because of the inherent gullibility of the human species.
That Joseph Smith gained a reputation as a seer despite never having successfully demonstrated genuine seer powers attests to his skill as a con man (and to the gullibility of his dupes), not to his abilities as a seer.
Remind me never to entrust any of my money with you.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
You might think so, but Joseph was able to convince a good many people that he could locate lost or hidden objects with his seer stone.
Are you suggesting Joseph Smith actually DID find lost or hidden objects with his seer stone?
If he never found anything with the seer stone, how do you suppose he gained a reputation as a seer in the first place?
I'm guessing the same way thousands, (millions ?) of people throughout the ages have conned others into believing an untruth.
I know I for one, over the years have trusted people I should not have, and bought into stories that were untrue. I don't think I am the only one in the world.
It has taken me a while to overcome this tendency, (smile) but I think I am a bit wiser and definitely more careful than I used to be.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj