LDS have the all time record of abuse and persecution.

[_Gazelam]

Nazi Oven




Mormon Oven

[_Dr. Shades]

Gazelam, do you realize that your lowermost picture, captioned "Mormon oven," doesn't show an oven at all?

[_The Nehor]

I think the LDS might be able to claim that title IF they include all the antedileuvian believers, the followers of Shem and the Patriarchs, Judaism until the First Century, Christianity for a Century or two after that, and then the LDS Church.

I don't know if they should claim that unless six million of their members have been gassed to death under the reign of a madman.

Claiming more persecution than the Jews effectively diminishes all that the Jews have suffered.

Either that or it exaggerates others.

I suppose the point is mostly moot.

If I really want to win the 'most persecuted' award for my faith I could add that I expect mass conversions within Judaism at the Second Coming so I see them as brothers. Letting them have the 'most persecuted' award would let Ephraim finally stop vexing Judah with their pride. Time to fulfil a prophecy.

[_Gazelam]

Gazelam, do you realize that your lowermost picture, captioned "Mormon oven," doesn't show an oven at all?

It was an insinuation. Sometimes all I can do is set a tone or mindset in a post and hope for understanding on the readers end.

Damn you antis are nitpicky !

[_Loquacious Lurker]

If I really want to win the 'most persecuted' award for my faith I could add that I expect mass conversions within Judaism at the Second Coming so I see them as brothers. Letting them have the 'most persecuted' award would let Ephraim finally stop vexing Judah with their pride. Time to fulfil a prophecy.

I agree with you that this point is "probably moot," and if it isn't, it should be. However, I think it's important to remember something about Jewish persecution.

It is a persecution largely driven by Christians, who viewed Jews as having slain Jesus. It is a persecution which has an ugly racial aspect to it as well.

Both of these, in my mind, tend to negate any connection the Mormon church would have to claiming Jewish persecution as its own at some future time. They are and always have been two separate faiths, doctrinally at odds with one another. Also, Mormons have never been a racially distinct group. In my understanding, "Ephraim" and "Manassah" are spiritual, not physical, lineages within the Mormon church. (If I'm wrong about this, I'd appreciate being corrected.)

Judaism has always been vastly different from Mormonism. That's not what I was taught in Seminary, but it is the truth. Their philosophies of the afterlife have always been entirely different, their modes of practice, and their conception of the Messiah is vastly at odds with Christian claims of the same. They expected a political figure to come as a national savior and restore the nation of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital -- at the time of the Babylonian exile. There was a partial fulfilling of that when the Jews returned and built the second temple around 500 BCE, but Messianic cults sprang up, occasionally making claims for some figure or other as "the Messiah" until several hundred years after Jesus. Jews became Christians by following Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus), instead of following Simon bar Kokhba, for example.

There were prophecies about Simon, too, you see; a Jewish sage by the name of Rabbi Akiva said he fulfilled the "Star prophecy" from Numbers 24:17 -- "There shall come a star out of Jacob." "Bar Kokhba" means "son of a star" in Aramaic. It's thought that this is where the original schism between Jews and Christians began -- arguing over the divisive question of who the "real" Messiah was, Simon or Yeshua.

At any rate, and sorry for babbling, Mormons cannot claim Jewish persecution as their own once the Jews convert, any more than they can claim African slave atrocities as their own if Africans convert. The Mormon church sits as a distinct entity from Judaism or African slavery.

[_The Nehor]

If I really want to win the 'most persecuted' award for my faith I could add that I expect mass conversions within Judaism at the Second Coming so I see them as brothers. Letting them have the 'most persecuted' award would let Ephraim finally stop vexing Judah with their pride. Time to fulfil a prophecy.

I agree with you that this point is "probably moot," and if it isn't, it should be. However, I think it's important to remember something about Jewish persecution.

It is a persecution largely driven by Christians, who viewed Jews as having slain Jesus. It is a persecution which has an ugly racial aspect to it as well.

Both of these, in my mind, tend to negate any connection the Mormon church would have to claiming Jewish persecution as its own at some future time. They are and always have been two separate faiths, doctrinally at odds with one another. Also, Mormons have never been a racially distinct group. In my understanding, "Ephraim" and "Manassah" are spiritual, not physical, lineages within the Mormon church. (If I'm wrong about this, I'd appreciate being corrected.)

Judaism has always been vastly different from Mormonism. That's not what I was taught in Seminary, but it is the truth. Their philosophies of the afterlife have always been entirely different, their modes of practice, and their conception of the Messiah is vastly at odds with Christian claims of the same. They expected a political figure to come as a national savior and restore the nation of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital -- at the time of the Babylonian exile. There was a partial fulfilling of that when the Jews returned and built the second temple around 500 BCE, but Messianic cults sprang up, occasionally making claims for some figure or other as "the Messiah" until several hundred years after Jesus. Jews became Christians by following Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus), instead of following Simon bar Kokhba, for example.

There were prophecies about Simon, too, you see; a Jewish sage by the name of Rabbi Akiva said he fulfilled the "Star prophecy" from Numbers 24:17 -- "There shall come a star out of Jacob." "Bar Kokhba" means "son of a star" in Aramaic. It's thought that this is where the original schism between Jews and Christians began -- arguing over the divisive question of who the "real" Messiah was, Simon or Yeshua.

At any rate, and sorry for babbling, Mormons cannot claim Jewish persecution as their own once the Jews convert, any more than they can claim African slave atrocities as their own if Africans convert. The Mormon church sits as a distinct entity from Judaism or African slavery.

Oh, I agree the faiths are completely distinct. I am grateful that the LDS faith contains in it's first scripture (the Book of Mormon) a resounding condemnation of the Christian persecution of the Jews.

I don't think the LDS faith is racially distinct in the same way Judaism is (though I think Judaism overestimates it's own racial distinctness). I do think the Ephraim and Manasseh descendancy is literal though. My personal guess is that the Lost 10 tribes fled north and many of their descendants reached England and Scandinavia (the source of most of the Church's U.S. membership and their earliest Missionary successes).

While I do not think LDS can claim Jewish persecution when they convert NOW if the Savior returns and brings about a mass conversion of the Jewish people to our faith and declares that the religion of their ancestors is our religion then I think that claim can be made though it is very difficult to substantiate beforehand. I also suspect that at the time this will seem like a very, very minor point.

[_Loquacious Lurker]

Oh, I agree the faiths are completely distinct. I am grateful that the LDS faith contains in it's first scripture (the Book of Mormon) a resounding condemnation of the Christian persecution of the Jews.

Yeah, the Mormon church has always had an affinity towards the Jewish faith.

I don't think the LDS faith is racially distinct in the same way Judaism is (though I think Judaism overestimates it's own racial distinctness). I do think the Ephraim and Manasseh descendancy is literal though. My personal guess is that the Lost 10 tribes fled north and many of their descendants reached England and Scandinavia (the source of most of the Church's U.S. membership and their earliest Missionary successes).

I'm curious: if a person of African descent receives their Patriarchal blessing, which tribe are they said to come from? Or are they not part of the tribes?

if the Savior returns and brings about a mass conversion of the Jewish people to our faith and declares that the religion of their ancestors is our religion then I think that claim can be made though it is very difficult to substantiate beforehand.

The point is, they were persecuted for being Jews, persecuted for being of a certain ethnic heritage and following religious practices, such as observing ritual circumcision, bar/bat mitzvahs, and holidays such as Yom Kippur, Chanukah, the Pesah Seder, etc. They followed a diverging path from Christianity/Mormonism.

The analogy would be to say that I, as a descendant of English colonists to America, am guilty of atrocities committed in India by the British Empire during the time of Gandhi, if I move to Britain and become a subject. I think both claims would be equally incorrect.

I also suspect that at the time this will seem like a very, very minor point.

Definitely! :D

[_The Nehor]

Oh, I agree the faiths are completely distinct. I am grateful that the LDS faith contains in it's first scripture (the Book of Mormon) a resounding condemnation of the Christian persecution of the Jews.

Yeah, the Mormon church has always had an affinity towards the Jewish faith.

I don't think the LDS faith is racially distinct in the same way Judaism is (though I think Judaism overestimates it's own racial distinctness). I do think the Ephraim and Manasseh descendancy is literal though. My personal guess is that the Lost 10 tribes fled north and many of their descendants reached England and Scandinavia (the source of most of the Church's U.S. membership and their earliest Missionary successes).

I'm curious: if a person of African descent receives their Patriarchal blessing, which tribe are they said to come from? Or are they not part of the tribes?

if the Savior returns and brings about a mass conversion of the Jewish people to our faith and declares that the religion of their ancestors is our religion then I think that claim can be made though it is very difficult to substantiate beforehand.

The point is, they were persecuted for being Jews, persecuted for being of a certain ethnic heritage and following religious practices, such as observing ritual circumcision, bar/bat mitzvahs, and holidays such as Yom Kippur, Chanukah, the Pesah Seder, etc. They followed a diverging path from Christianity/Mormonism.

The analogy would be to say that I, as a descendant of English colonists to America, am guilty of atrocities committed in India by the British Empire during the time of Gandhi, if I move to Britain and become a subject. I think both claims would be equally incorrect.

I also suspect that at the time this will seem like a very, very minor point.

Definitely! :D

In regards to tribal selection, I can only share what I've heard as the Church does not publish lists (for good reason I think). I know of cases where african members have been assigned to a tribe by adoption. I know of cases where people of all races have been told that they were not of Israel's blood and are adopted (in some cases into a tribe and in some cases I've heard there was no tribal adoption at all and they were merely reassigned to Israel in general. I suspect that each person's lineage is really their own concern. Too many Church members of the house of Ephraim wear their tribal membership as a badge of honor (which it is) and seem to have forgotten to read up on what our tribe did and the failings it seems to have. I know I've got a few of them mixed in with the blessings.

I think your analogy is good but I think there is more guilt tied into your example then you would admit though I doubt I could convince you to agree with me. To put it in perspective my sins of rebellion against God are not that different then those that led Jeroboam to turn the nation of Israel from God back to idols. While I'm not guilty of his sin it is in my blood to go and do likewise.

[_Loquacious Lurker]

I know of cases where african members have been assigned to a tribe by adoption. I know of cases where people of all races have been told that they were not of Israel's blood and are adopted (in some cases into a tribe and in some cases I've heard there was no tribal adoption at all and they were merely reassigned to Israel in general. I suspect that each person's lineage is really their own concern.

Okay...I was just wondering about that. Thanks.

I think your analogy is good but I think there is more guilt tied into your example then you would admit though I doubt I could convince you to agree with me.

Sorry...not sure I'm really following you on what the "guilt" is. Could you explain? I couldn't really think of a time when the British were persecuted to use as an example for my analogy. They seemed to be doing most of the persecuting. :P So I had to use that instead.

To put it in perspective my sins of rebellion against God are not that different then those that led Jeroboam to turn the nation of Israel from God back to idols. While I'm not guilty of his sin it is in my blood to go and do likewise.

Well, I'd agree with you that human nature has not changed and probably will not, no matter how "civilized" we become in the future. We all have equal capacity for good or bad. That's just what makes us human. What makes us beautifully human is that we also have the capacity to recognize it.

[_Mahonri]

On a mission you did not go swimming because Satan controls the waters.

In pre and WWII Germany Satan apparently ruled and influenced Hitler. while the LDS church reached accomodation with him and was not persecuted. The Jehovah Witnesses refused to accomodate the Nazis and were actively persecuted. During this time of imprisonment and execution, their numbers increased, to the point they even converted some of the SS guards and executioners.

LDS Persecution? A figment of the imagination compared to the Jews in Germany and still around the world. If LDS, Inc were faced with Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians, and all the forces of the Middle East against them in real persecution they would be running away fast once again.