beastie wrote:Gee, Nehor, given your screen name, you should be able to think of at least 4 that were explicitly named:
18 And when they had been cast into prison three days, there came many lawyers, and judges, and priests, and teachers, who were of the profession of Nehor; and they came in unto the prison to see them, and they questioned them about many words; but they answered them nothing.
Alma 14
And there are others explicitly named:
11 For there were many merchants in the land, and also many lawyers, and many officers.
3 Nephi 6
Nephites also eventually separated the functions of state and religion. This is another sign of social complexity.
Obvious class differences is another sign of social complexity:
11 And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind; and there were also curious workmen, who did work all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich.
Helaman 6
There are two indicators of social complexity within this verse. One is "curious workmen" - people who were trained to do just one thing. Another is that they became "rich" by so doing.
This verse explicitly states that there were social ranks:
12 And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.
3 Nephi 6
Also indicated is that "riches" were connected to "great learning".
I found these verses within a few minutes of searching. The problem, Nehor, is that you haven't read the Book of Mormon while watching for these kinds of things.
Actually, I have and I do agree that the society did get much more complex from about 80 B.C. to the Coming of Christ. However, that is barely a blip on the radar compared to the whole. The whole thing got built up and crashed in about a century.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Actually, I have and I do agree that the society did get much more complex from about 80 B.C. to the Coming of Christ. However, that is barely a blip on the radar compared to the whole. The whole thing got built up and crashed in about a century.
By your own admission, this culture was very complex and powerful for at least 300 years. This is exactly the type of culture that would have had a tremendous impact on the rest of the surrounding polities.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Actually, I have and I do agree that the society did get much more complex from about 80 B.C. to the Coming of Christ. However, that is barely a blip on the radar compared to the whole. The whole thing got built up and crashed in about a century.
By your own admission, this culture was very complex and powerful for at least 300 years. This is exactly the type of culture that would have had a tremendous impact on the rest of the surrounding polities.
I wouldn't characterize it as powerful and I think very complex is an exagerration. In many ways it was their cultural height and in others their worst time period. That the Book of Mormon focuses on this period tells me that that might be where we are.
Also not sure where you got the 300 years figure from. I believe it was much shorter then that.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I'm sorry; I don't think you are qualified in this area and so much of what you post is hubris.
To simply dispose of Cyrus Gordon's work on the basis of your disagreement that he thinks a sculpture shows a negroid influence is rather arbitrary, wouldn't you say?
As a Semiticist, I think that Gordon is eminently qualified to comment upon possible influences in the Americas.
I wouldn't characterize it as powerful and I think very complex is an exagerration. In many ways it was their cultural height and in others their worst time period. That the Book of Mormon focuses on this period tells me that that might be where we are.
Also not sure where you got the 300 years figure from. I believe it was much shorter then that.
You can believe whatever you want, but you should be able to support it from the text. I was being generous with the 300 year figure. In reality, you can detect social complexity much earlier than 80 BC (for example, it requires a certain level of social complexity to build community buildings like a temple), and much later than the coming of Christ (note the number of specifically named polities that were involved in the final wars, that worked together under one leadership from the central polity).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
I'm sorry; I don't think you are qualified in this area and so much of what you post is hubris.
To simply dispose of Cyrus Gordon's work on the basis of your disagreement that he thinks a sculpture shows a negroid influence is rather arbitrary, wouldn't you say?
As a Semiticist, I think that Gordon is eminently qualified to comment upon possible influences in the Americas.
I've never presented myself as anything more than an interested lay person who has taken the time to attain a certain level of background knowledge on the subject.
I presented Gordon's "looks like a negroid" as just one example of his approach to the subject. He was not trained in Mesoamerican studies and did not understand what he was seeing. He went outside his area of expertise. I agree with the statement in the NYT article regarding his death:
Dr. Gordon also contended that Hebrew inscriptions many centuries old had been found at two sites in the southeastern United States. Those inscriptions, he further maintained, indicated that Jews had arrived here before Columbus. Frank Moore Cross, a retired professor of Hebrew and other Semitic languages at Harvard, said in an interview recently that Dr. Gordon was ''in many ways a great scholar'' but that this belief ''simply did not make sense.''
The Nehor wrote:Actually, I have and I do agree that the society did get much more complex from about 80 B.C. to the Coming of Christ. However, that is barely a blip on the radar compared to the whole. The whole thing got built up and crashed in about a century.
OK. That gives us a little over a century of complex civilization. Where is the evidence for that?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
rcrocket wrote:I'm sorry; I don't think you are qualified in this area and so much of what you post is hubris.
To simply dispose of Cyrus Gordon's work on the basis of your disagreement that he thinks a sculpture shows a negroid influence is rather arbitrary, wouldn't you say?
As a Semiticist, I think that Gordon is eminently qualified to comment upon possible influences in the Americas.
A a Semiticist, Gordon was eminently qualified to comment upon his own field. He is also generally regarded as somewhat sketchy when he departed from it--as he was when he was commenting on Ancient America.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
beastie wrote:for example, it requires a certain level of social complexity to build community buildings like a temple
This is no small point: it takes a good deal of economic support and personnel to construct and maintain a temple and its services. One can see how in Late Antiquity the temples of the old Hellenic gods started to decline and be abandoned not for want of believer, but for lack of support from the emperor and the aristocracy. The emperor Julian attempted to turn the tables, but his reign was too brief and his efforts too unpopular to effect a reversal.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
beastie wrote:for example, it requires a certain level of social complexity to build community buildings like a temple
This is no small point: it takes a good deal of economic support and personnel to construct and maintain a temple and its services. One can see how in Late Antiquity the temples of the old Hellenic gods started to decline and be abandoned not for want of believer, but for lack of support from the emperor and the aristocracy. The emperor Julian attempted to turn the tables, but his reign was too brief and his efforts too unpopular to effect a reversal.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The Jewish Temple of Solomon is a small building compared to most Temples. With a little bit of cash I could build it in less then a year if I followed Nephi's example and didn't use as much gold, jewels, etc. as the people in Jerusalem did. It's mostly just a wall around a small building that only a few people could enter in any case. I really don't think it'd be a huge burden to build and maintain.It's a two room temple and an outer courtyard.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo