The Most Serious Book of Mormon Anachronism (split from Midgley thread)

[_Trevor]

I suspect that in function and form the Temples were very similar. It's hard to screw it up. The Tabernacle, the Temple of Solomon, and the Temple of Zerubbabel all followed the same pattern. I think it's pretty easy to assume later Temples would follow suit. You're right, I've never seen the Temple of Solomon or Nephi's Temple. I did see the Jewish tabernacle once.

If you follow the pattern of the Jewish Temple, then the structure was rebuilt on a grander scale. If you take the Temple that was operating before the Romans destroyed it, with all of its structural grandeur, immense wealth, and complex array of personnel, then you are talking about a whole different order of civilization represented in its existence and functioning. This isn't just a mud hut with a couple of guys hanging out to mind the store.

[Guest]

Gee, that's very long. I lost you after, "Since"

However, you're preaching to the choir. I still don't think the Book of Mormon occurred in Mesoamerica. The symbolism is off and what is described does not sound like the terrain of Mesoamerica to me.

Yeah, I knew you'd never read it.

The problem for you is that ancient Mesoamerica, during the Book of Mormon time period, had the highest and most dense population levels anywhere on the continent. Any problems that the Mesoamerican setting presents increase geometrically if you choose another region. That's why the vast majority of apologists insist it has to be Mesoamerica. They're not actually insisting as much because the text actually matches Mesoamerica - they spend most of their time explaining why it doesn't. They're doing it because they have to.

I actually did read it, I'm giving you a hard time.

As I am not an apologist I don't think I have to insist on Mesoamerica.

[_Trevor]

I actually did read it, I'm giving you a hard time.

As I am not an apologist I don't think I have to.

So you just play one until you are asked to back up what you are saying? ;-)

[_rcrocket]

CyrusGordon

So are you going to defend your earlier assertions or not?

I am not impressed with your internet scholarship, nor am I impressed with newspaper articles with one scholar criticizing another. Michael Coe certainly has his enemies; that doesn't make him less of an expert in my eyes.

[_rcrocket]

I'm sorry; I don't think you are qualified in this area and so much of what you post is hubris.

To simply dispose of Cyrus Gordon's work on the basis of your disagreement that he thinks a sculpture shows a negroid influence is rather arbitrary, wouldn't you say?

As a Semiticist, I think that Gordon is eminently qualified to comment upon possible influences in the Americas.

A a Semiticist, Gordon was eminently qualified to comment upon his own field. He is also generally regarded as somewhat sketchy when he departed from it--as he was when he was commenting on Ancient America.

'

You really think so, huh? Let's see, a scholar in Etruscan civilization is unqualified to opine as to the possible occurrence of Etruscan trade items in India? I get it -- yeah, right.

Let me see further -- you've never read Gordon's works -- any of them. And you're commenting upon them?

[Guest]

You really think so, huh? Let's see, a scholar in Etruscan civilization is unqualified to opine as to the possible occurrence of Etruscan trade items in India? I get it -- yeah, right.

Let me see further -- you've never read Gordon's works -- any of them. And you're commenting upon them?

I am telling you what I have heard, Bob, mostly from people who work in the area of Near Eastern contacts with Greece. I didn't claim it was a generally applicable maxim, bozo.

[_rcrocket]

You really think so, huh? Let's see, a scholar in Etruscan civilization is unqualified to opine as to the possible occurrence of Etruscan trade items in India? I get it -- yeah, right.

Let me see further -- you've never read Gordon's works -- any of them. And you're commenting upon them?

I am telling you what I have hear, Bob, mostly from people who work in the area of Near Eastern contacts with Greece. I didn't claim it was a generally applicable maxim, bozo.

I'm nonetheless humbled to reconsider my position that a Semiticist (and, I might add, one of the nation's best at the time) would be qualified to recognize Semitic cultural items outside of the Middle East. Got it. I'm learning. Keep feeding me valuable information. The "bozo" just put the pompous point on it; thanks.

[_Trevor]

I'm nonetheless humbled to reconsider my position that a Semiticist (and, I might add, one of the nation's best at the time) would be qualified to recognize Semitic cultural items outside of the Middle East. Got it. I'm learning. Keep feeding me valuable information. The "bozo" just put the pompous point on it; thanks.

Evidently you aren't learning much. You're just typing. If you tried reading, and then actually representing the ideas of others accurately, you would be much less tedious to deal with.

[_John Larsen]

You really think so, huh? Let's see, a scholar in Etruscan civilization is unqualified to opine as to the possible occurrence of Etruscan trade items in India? I get it -- yeah, right.

Let me see further -- you've never read Gordon's works -- any of them. And you're commenting upon them?

I am telling you what I have hear, Bob, mostly from people who work in the area of Near Eastern contacts with Greece. I didn't claim it was a generally applicable maxim, bozo.

I'm nonetheless humbled to reconsider my position that a Semiticist (and, I might add, one of the nation's best at the time) would be qualified to recognize Semitic cultural items outside of the Middle East. Got it. I'm learning. Keep feeding me valuable information. The "bozo" just put the pompous point on it; thanks.

When I was in school, my physics teacher told me that chemistry was a subset of physics and my chemistry teacher told me that physics was a subset of chemistry. I think it is more likely we will over project the importance of our own discipline onto surrounding areas. It is quite likely that a Semiticist might see parallels with Maya culture, and with Chinese culture and with Aborigine culture--it is what they do. They would be ill equip to deal with the foreign symbols and would apply the understanding (wrongly) they have--ala Hugh Nibley.

[_Gazelam]

If your looking for Judeo-Christian evidence you need look no further than Cusco and its Temple.

The Temple of the Sun had four walls that were covered in gold plaques from top to bottom. A large likeness of the Sun hung above the Altar. The Sun was made of pure gold and was twice as thick as the pannels on the walls. it featured a round face with rays and flames coming off the sides. The way the Spanish painters representd it it was immence and took up the entire rear wall of the room. There was no other idol in the temple.

This room was prolonged by a square cloister with an adjoining wall, and crowned by a gold band. The three other sides of the cloister gave in to five large square rooms that had no communication between them and were roofed over in the form of a pyramid.

The first of these rooms was dedicated to the Moon. this was nearest to the main room. it was entirely paneled in silver, and the likeness of the moon decorated it the same way the sun decorated the main room.

The room nearest this was dedicated to the stars. This was paneled with silver, and the ceiling was decorated with stars like the firmament. the constelation of the Pleiades was particularly revered because of the regularity and perfection of its well grouped design.

A third room was dedicated to lightning and thunder, a fourth to the rainbow, and the fifth was reserved for the use of the High Priest and his assistants. The name of the high priest was uilac-umu. this means "he who speaks in divine matters".

The temple was decorated with five fountains that were fed from different sources. Their pipes were of solid gold and their stone pillars were covered with either gold or silver. This garden was entirely made of gold and silver. Here could be seen all sorts of plants, flowers, trees, animals both small and large, wild and tame, tiny crawling creatures such as snakes and lizards, snails, as well as butterflies and birds of every size; each of these placed where they were best suited. There was a tall corn stalk , as well as other vegtables and fruit trees, the fruits of them carefully made of gold and silver.

There were also piles of wool made of Gold and silver found in the house fo the Sun. (Wonder what the fleece of a lamb would be used for in a temple?) As well as statues of Men, Women and children made of the same material.

Source: Garcilaso de la vega, The Royal commentaries of the Yncas.

http://www.ayahuasca-shamanism.co.uk/Koricancha-2.htm