LDS Apologetics Operating Costs Are More Than $7,000,000

[_Daniel Peterson]

Well, that's not what you guys told the IRS.

I don't know what our professional accountant told the IRS in 1999, and I wouldn't trust your reading of anything more nuanced than a telephone book (if even that). Perhaps I'll look at these documents sometime. But I simply wasn't ever paid anything remotely like $20K for serving as chairman of the board. Period.

The same year you pulled in 6K, you were also given a "research grant" of $2,200. That same year, Prof. Hamblin was paid $200, Prof. Gee was given $100, and Prof. Midgley was given $200. Brian Hauglid was given $1,000.

On the model of colleges, departments, and other entities at BYU and other universities, research grants are given out to support . . . well, research. They're used to hire an assistant or to buy paper, or to pay for travel to research collections, or to buy teaching time, or whatever. There's nothing sinister or unusual in this.

Clearly, some people are profiting from apologetics.

By which you mean (shudder!) that some people are being paid for the work they do.

It won't make any difference to you, probably, but others might find it useful to be reminded that much of the work of FARMS in 1999 was, as the work of the Maxwell Institute today still is, office- and administrative and accounting work. And shipping and editing and reception and the like. And that we had a team doing multispectral imaging in Jordan, and a team in Lebanon and then in Italy digitizing manuscripts. And that we were editing and publishing medieval Islamic texts in dual-language formats. And that this had to be managed. And that, in 1999, we were spending hours and hours each week negotiating the agreement by which FARMS was incorporated into the University. None of this was apologetic in nature. It was just hard work, and often boring and frustrating. That some people were paid for doing it is not a crime.

I'm sure that there are all sorts of people who would love to make the kind of money that these FARMS boys are raking in.

I'm sure that there are many people who would love to have the kinds of salaries that academics make, in North America as well as in Bangladesh. But very few people with comparable educations in the United States would settle for those salaries.

If your new tack is to suggest that we've been wallowing in money from doing apologetics, you're simply wrong.

Well, there's your exchange with James White. And there is this article by Prof. Midgley:

Please be a bit more specific. And please bear in mind that Professor Midgley and I are separate individuals.

And please note, too, that I don't regard professional crusaders against a religion as the equivalent of people publishing the Book of Breathings, doing textual histories of the Book of Mormon, and the like.

Well, I bet that 99.99% don't have multimillion dollar budgets like FARMS's.

And I'll bet that none of them produce searchable electronic databases of the Dead Sea Scrolls, publish dual-language texts of medieval Arabic philosophy and science, digitize Syriac documents in the Vatican Library, sponsor conferences on Qumran studies in North America and Israel, and perform multispectral imaging at Herculaneum and in Petra and at Bonampak.

I'm sure if they had millions to throw around that they'd be doing more stuff akin to the things you've listed.

You seriously think that Mormonism Research Ministry and Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Nauvoo Christian Visitor Center and such organizations have even the slightest interest in spearheading any projects even remotely like those I've listed above? Seriously???

You once said that you never received "one dime" for apologetics.

I've typically said that not a single dime of my salary comes from doing apologetics, and that my salary would be precisely the same -- if anything, it might be just slightly higher -- if I didn't. And that's true. I've never denied receiving a royalty of $50 or $100 here or there, from one year to the next.

I've never believed that editing is the same as doing apologetics, though -- let alone that administrative work is apologetics. I didn't mind a bit that I was given some extra compensation for the hours and hours and hours that I spent working on the merger agreement for FARMS with BYU, which came on top of my editing and teaching duties and which almost destroyed my personal research and writing for several years. But I never received anything remotely like $20K as an annual board chairmanship fee. That simply didn't happen, though it would have been wonderful if it had.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Well, that's very odd. An anonymous informant [!] passed along some information, namely the 990 non-profit tax forms for FARMS from the late 1990s, and according to one of them, you were paid $20,400 as chair of FARMS in 1999, and $6,000 in 1998.

I would have to study those forms to try to deduce what's going on, but it simply isn't true that I made either of those sums as chair of FARMS.

That's a good chunk of change. No need to be embarrassed by it, Dan -- you deserve every penny.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Well, that's very odd. An anonymous informant [!] passed along some information, namely the 990 non-profit tax forms for FARMS from the late 1990s, and according to one of them, you were paid $20,400 as chair of FARMS in 1999, and $6,000 in 1998.

I would have to study those forms to try to deduce what's going on, but it simply isn't true that I made either of those sums as chair of FARMS.

That's a good chunk of change. No need to be embarrassed by it, Dan -- you deserve every penny.

You're absolutely right. I did and do deserve it. And then some. But I never got it.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Well, that's very odd. An anonymous informant [!] passed along some information, namely the 990 non-profit tax forms for FARMS from the late 1990s, and according to one of them, you were paid $20,400 as chair of FARMS in 1999, and $6,000 in 1998.

I would have to study those forms to try to deduce what's going on, but it simply isn't true that I made either of those sums as chair of FARMS.

That's a good chunk of change. No need to be embarrassed by it, Dan -- you deserve every penny.

You're absolutely right. I did and do deserve it. And then some. But I never got it.

Then someone ought to notify the IRS because it appears FARMS took deductions for which it was not entitled (that $20K+ you were paid).

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, that's not what you guys told the IRS.

I don't know what our professional accountant told the IRS in 1999, and I wouldn't trust your reading of anything more nuanced than a telephone book (if even that). Perhaps I'll look at these documents sometime. But I simply wasn't ever paid anything remotely like $20K for serving as chairman of the board. Period.

That was just one year. The other years, it seems, you were paid more on the order of $7,000 or so. Correct?

The same year you pulled in 6K, you were also given a "research grant" of $2,200. That same year, Prof. Hamblin was paid $200, Prof. Gee was given $100, and Prof. Midgley was given $200. Brian Hauglid was given $1,000.

On the model of colleges, departments, and other entities at BYU and other universities, research grants are given out to support . . . well, research. They're used to hire an assistant or to buy paper, or to pay for travel to research collections, or to buy teaching time, or whatever. There's nothing sinister or unusual in this.

Oh, I agree. It is just interesting to see how these vast sums of money are deployed to do battle against "The Adversary" and various Church critics.

Clearly, some people are profiting from apologetics.

By which you mean (shudder!) that some people are being paid for the work they do.

It won't make any difference to you, probably, but others might find it useful to be reminded that much of the work of FARMS in 1999 was, as the work of the Maxwell Institute today still is, office- and administrative and accounting work. And shipping and editing and reception and the like. And that we had a team doing multispectral imaging in Jordan, and a team in Lebanon and then in Italy digitizing manuscripts. And that we were editing and publishing medieval Islamic texts in dual-language formats. And that this had to be managed. And that, in 1999, we were spending hours and hours each week negotiating the agreement by which FARMS was incorporated into the University. None of this was apologetic in nature. It was just hard work, and often boring and frustrating. That some people were paid for doing it is not a crime.

"Much of the work"? What does that even mean, Prof. P.? And yes: I'm aware of those other projects, since they are listed on the tax forms. Incidentally, it appears that you guys were spending less than 10% on the Islamic project than you were on "marketing." Face it: the bulk of your work and expenditures are geared towards the financing of apologetics. And this is millions of dollars we are talking about.

I'm sure that there are all sorts of people who would love to make the kind of money that these FARMS boys are raking in.

I'm sure that there are many people who would love to have the kinds of salaries that academics make, in North America as well as in Bangladesh. But very few people with comparable educations in the United States would settle for those salaries.

If your new tack is to suggest that we've been wallowing in money from doing apologetics, you're simply wrong.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting, rather, that some of you are obviously able to live quite comfortably thanks to the existence of Mormon apologetics. Some of you, in fact, are able to supplement your already solid academic salaries with "research grants" and the like. That sure must be nice!

Well, there's your exchange with James White. And there is this article by Prof. Midgley:

Please be a bit more specific. And please bear in mind that Professor Midgley and I are separate individuals.

Please bear in mind that I said "You guys" and not "you, Daniel Peterson." Anyways, you would have overseen and edited Midgley's article, which indicates implicit approval and agreement.

And please note, too, that I don't regard professional crusaders against a religion as the equivalent of people publishing the Book of Breathings, doing textual histories of the Book of Mormon, and the like.

Perhaps you would if their annual budgets were over $2 million.

Well, I bet that 99.99% don't have multimillion dollar budgets like FARMS's.

And I'll bet that none of them produce searchable electronic databases of the Dead Sea Scrolls, publish dual-language texts of medieval Arabic philosophy and science, digitize Syriac documents in the Vatican Library, sponsor conferences on Qumran studies in North America and Israel, and perform multispectral imaging at Herculaneum and in Petra and at Bonampak.

I'm sure if they had millions to throw around that they'd be doing more stuff akin to the things you've listed.

You seriously think that Mormonism Research Ministry and Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Nauvoo Christian Visitor Center and such organizations have even the slightest interest in spearheading any projects even remotely like those I've listed above? Seriously???

Who can tell? With millions of dollars, all kinds of possibilities start to open up.

You once said that you never received "one dime" for apologetics.

I've typically said that not a single dime of my salary comes from doing apologetics, and that my salary would be precisely the same -- if anything, it might be just slightly higher -- if I didn't. And that's true. I've never denied receiving a royalty of $50 or $100 here or there, from one year to the next.

Or of $2000. Or $20,000.

I've never believed that editing is the same as doing apologetics, though -- let alone that administrative work is apologetics. I didn't mind a bit that I was given some extra compensation for the hours and hours and hours that I spent working on the merger agreement for FARMS with BYU, which came on top of my editing and teaching duties and which almost destroyed my personal research and writing for several years. But I never received anything remotely like $20K as an annual board chairmanship fee. That simply didn't happen, though it would have been wonderful if it had.

The 990 form certainly begs to differ. If this was money owed to you, you may want to look into it. I sure know that if $20,000 of *my* money went missing, I'd want to know what happened to it. Perhaps you can ask your fellow board members if they received their fat checks. Over a hundred thousand dollars was disbursed to the members of the board, after all.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Then someone ought to notify the IRS because it appears FARMS took deductions for which it was not entitled (that $20K+ you were paid).

First of all, FARMS is and always has been a non-profit entity.

Second, I don't deny being paid something like that sum. I simply deny that I was paid that sum as chairman of the board of FARMS.

If you read this thread, you will see my suggestion that what this may reflect, to a large extent, is the amount that FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute) paid to buy my time from my department so that, to that extent, I could devote myself to directing and editing the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative (and directing the Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, which was also my province at about that time and which involved projects in Lebanon, Jordan, Italy, Mexico, and the UK) instead of teaching. The way this works is that entity X buys Professor A's time from entity Y by paying entity Y for the amount of Professor A's time that entity X chooses to buy. Professor A's salary is unaffected by the transaction, but x% of his unchanged salary is now coming from entity X rather than from entity Y.

I would have to go back through old materials from a decade ago in order to be certain. And I hate financial documents and, most particularly, tax materials. So I probably won't. The opinion held of me by Scratch Major and Scratch Minor isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, and, anyway, probably wouldn't be affected in a positive direction by anything I could conceivably do short of repudiating my religious beliefs.

[_beastie]

It's a good thing no one at the Maxwell Institute has said anything that may give the impression one of its primary missions is producing apologia:

The Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship exists to

* Describe and defend the Restoration through highest quality scholarship
* Provide critically edited, primary resources (ancient religious texts) to scholars and lay persons around the world
* Build bridges of understanding and goodwill to Muslim scholars by providing superior editions of primary texts
* Provide an anchor of faith in a sea of LDS Studies

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm suggesting, rather, that some of you are obviously able to live quite comfortably thanks to the existence of Mormon apologetics. Some of you, in fact, are able to supplement your already solid academic salaries with "research grants" and the like. That sure must be nice!

Oh, you have no idea how nice it is.

I can still recall how ecstatic Professor Hamblin and Professor Midgley were about their life-changing research grants of $200 each back in 1999. And Professor Gee actually had to be physically restrained when he learned that he would be given $100. "That works out to almost thirty cents a day, for every day of the year including weekends!" he exclaimed. "Even after I pay my research assistant and buy supplies and spend a week in the Egyptian Department of the Metropolitan Museum in New York, that's almost enough to retire on!" Afterwards, he never entered the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes again, laughingly explaining to his associates that winning that jackpot would be "redundant" and explaining that, anyhow, you couldn't expect lightning to strike the same spot twice.

[_Mister Scratch]

Then someone ought to notify the IRS because it appears FARMS took deductions for which it was not entitled (that $20K+ you were paid).

First of all, FARMS is and always has been a non-profit entity.

Second, I don't deny being paid something like that sum. I simply deny that I was paid that sum as chairman of the board of FARMS.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given your prior posts in this thread. You *were* actually paid 20K for your apologetic works? Huh?

If you read this thread, you will see my suggestion that what this may reflect, to a large extent, is the amount that FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute) paid to buy my time from my department so that, to that extent, I could devote myself to directing and editing the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative (and directing the Center for the Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts, which was also my province at about that time and which involved projects in Lebanon, Jordan, Italy, Mexico, and the UK) instead of teaching. The way this works is that entity X buys Professor A's time from entity Y by paying entity Y for the amount of Professor A's time that entity X chooses to buy. Professor A's salary is unaffected by the transaction, but x% of his unchanged salary is now coming from entity X rather than from entity Y.

The problem is that the 990 form clearly states that you were being paid as "chair" of the FARMS board. As I've noted, you made considerably less in the other years, typically 6-8 thousand. How do you account for the discrepancy?

I would have to go back through old materials from a decade ago in order to be certain. And I hate financial documents and, most particularly, tax materials. So I probably won't. The opinion held of me by Scratch Major and Scratch Minor isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, and, anyway, probably wouldn't be affected in a positive direction by anything I could conceivably do short of repudiating my religious beliefs.

C'mon, Prof. P. Our discussions seldom ever have to do with actual LDS doctrine or beliefs. Heck, you won't even discuss certain items publicly, such as Adam-God.

[Guest]

You *were* actually paid 20K for your apologetic works? Huh?

Huh? No. I wasn't.

The problem is that the 990 form clearly states that you were being paid as "chair" of the FARMS board.

Then, to that extent, it's wrong.

As I've noted, you made considerably less in the other years, typically 6-8 thousand. How do you account for the discrepancy?

I have no idea what that accountant, since fired, was doing.

C'mon, Prof. P. Our discussions seldom ever have to do with actual LDS doctrine or beliefs.

We don't have "discussions."

But you're right. Your posts, as several here have commented to me via private mail, are invariably about people rather than about substantive issues.