Reporting Crockett to the Bar

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_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Ray A wrote:Regardless of the arguments being made here, pro or con, I think we're going to see more of this in the future. I have no objection to criticism of individuals, and like you I don't decry anonymity, per se. But the case of "Hack" and "Caz" is illustrative of more than just "fair criticism". They deliberately set out to destroy reputations and expose people. It took five years to uncover them, and lo and behold they both turned out to be journalists working in "respectable media".


Seems to me that some of what has been going on here is quite parallel with the case of "Hack" and "Caz." Looks like it's time for some to do a little research and reflect upon what consequences they are prepared to face.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Trevor wrote:
Seems to me that some of what has been going on here is quite parallel with the case of "Hack" and "Caz." Looks like it's time for some to do a little research and reflect upon what consequences they are prepared to face.


I think so, Trevor, and perhaps a rule of thumb should be something like: If you can't publish criticism in the print media, with your name under the criticism (and go for your life if you want to criticise), then be careful about taking unrestrained liberty to publish on the anonymous Internet what you wouldn't in identifiable print.

I think this article is a timely piece for the debate about anonymity, which, again, I don't believe is necessarily wrong, unless it turns into the style used by Hack and Caz, which many objected to. And note that although it was:

a website notorious for lampooning fame-hungry celebrities and duplicitous politicians.


something few might actually disagree with, it was the way they went about it that led to their eventual exposure.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Now that, Ray, was an interesting article.

It's hard to imagine, isn't it?, that anonymous or pseudonymous posters would continuously attack, malign, and defame named people, in public venues, while jealously hiding their own identities.

You're pulling out the martyr card again. Dan, you alone chose to name yourself on this bb. And we've see what you and Bob do when someone who posts anonymously is uncovered -- you do your best to destroy him. So stop your incessant whining about anonymity.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Ray A wrote:I think this article is a timely piece for the debate about anonymity, which, again, I don't believe is necessarily wrong, unless it turns into the style used by Hack and Caz, which many objected to. And note that although it was:

a website notorious for lampooning fame-hungry celebrities and duplicitous politicians.


something few might actually disagree with, it was the way they went about it that led to their eventual exposure.


Well, that is the trick, isn't it? Knowing what to avoid and how far one can go. It looks like the safest thing to do, in order to preserve anonymity, is simply not to draw attention to one's self by criticizing another person repeatedly. Obviously, if one is willing to put one's full name to something, and bear the consequences, then that is what one should do.

I'll be quite frank here. If this is the future, then I will be calling it quits. I started out with something of a Robin Hood mentality about the whole thing. I was a grad student, and I didn't really think of what was truly at risk. I had the American tradition of pamphleteering under a pseudonym in mind. Being discontent with my experience in the LDS Church, I looked for an outlet and a community of fellow discontents to share it with.

Overall it has been a good experience. I have met lots of interesting people across the country and the world, and I have found that I am not alone in my sense of the problems the faith community of my youth labors under. One of my particular peeves has been the practice of apologetics, which I saw being undertaken in a spirit and tone contrary to the values I had grown up with. I still firmly believe that certain aspects of what goes on in the LDS apologetic community are deleterious to the LDS community. Whether those in power agree with me has never been my concern. My sense of right and wrong was my concern.

Now that I have a professional life, and I don't care to make this the focus of my existence, as some of the apologists seem to have chosen to do, I would prefer to concentrate on what ultimately will be of more value to me. It may, in some sense, already be too late to come out of this reputation unscathed. Such is life. Maybe it is simply time to put a cap on the damage that already has been done.

Why the concern? Because the LDS Church has money and power. They have friends in high places. Judges and senators sympathetic to their cause. I don't believe in massive conspiracies, but I do believe that these guys will do whatever is in their legal power to stamp out criticism. If that means "outing" every internet critic who does not want to be outed, then I have no doubt they will at least consider it. The criticism will not end, of course, but it will be decreased somewhat. And since they view it as their sacred duty to document and fight such criticism, I can imagine they will do what they can to pursue every avenue available.

In closing, I offer my observation that secrecy begets secrecy. Negative criticism begets negative criticism. I may have made the mistake of continuing to be involved in all of this, but I wasn't dancing alone to get to where I am. The apologists have equally been in the dance. The LDS Church has been part of its own negative image from the beginning. I am not certain what to do next, and I am not saying I will stop posting today, but I think it is inevitable that I will stop. And, it may allow me to do other, more constructive things in pursuing what I think are useful critiques of some of the truly bad thinking I see in the LDS community. Or maybe I will just leave it all alone and spend my time elsewhere. We'll see.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Why the concern? Because these people have money and power. They have friends in high places. Judges and senators sympathetic to their cause. I don't believe in massive conspiracies, but I do believe that these guys will do whatever is in their legal power to stamp out criticism. If that means "outing" every internet critic who does not want to be outed, then I have no doubt they will at least consider it. The criticism will not end, of course, but it will be decreased somewhat. And since they view it as their sacred duty to document and fight such criticism, I can imagine they will do what they can to pursue every avenue available.


Totally agree!

When I first discovered the world of online Mormon discussion boards I would not have imagined such a thing but I've learned a lot over the years and today feel quite certain you are correct.

Unfortunately.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Trevor
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Post by _Trevor »

truth dancer wrote:Totally agree!

When I first discovered the world of online Mormon discussion boards I would not have imagined such a thing but I've learned a lot over the years and today feel quite certain you are correct.

Unfortunately.

~dancer~


It is probably good to keep the Scientologists in mind in this context. I don't think the LDS Church wants to the same reputation for aggressively pursuing all criticism in the same fashion, but Scientology is kind of a trailblazer in using the courts to stamp out criticism.

The LDS Church just may look to their example and take what they find useful.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Trevor wrote:
truth dancer wrote:Totally agree!

When I first discovered the world of online Mormon discussion boards I would not have imagined such a thing but I've learned a lot over the years and today feel quite certain you are correct.

Unfortunately.

~dancer~


It is probably good to keep the Scientologists in mind in this context. I don't think the LDS Church wants to the same reputation for aggressively pursuing all criticism in the same fashion, but Scientology is kind of a trailblazer in using the courts to stamp out criticism.

The LDS Church just may look to their example and take what they find useful.


And, it seems to me the LDS church can use apologists to do the dirty work?

I could be wrong but I don't know how the church is not aware of some of the nastiness of its defenders.

OTOH, the Ensign article seemed to address this problem, and calls mean spirited apologists to repentance (not that it helped).

Then again, they could be writing the article to show that they do not condone the nastiness, yet overlook it when it "works"?

I don't know. It just all seems weird to me.

:-(

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Post by _Trevor »

truth dancer wrote:And, it seems to me the LDS church can use apologists to do the dirty work?

I could be wrong but I don't know how the church is not aware of some of the nastiness of its defenders.

OTOH, the Ensign article seemed to address this problem, and calls mean spirited apologists to repentance (not that it helped).

Then again, they could be writing the article to show that they do not condone the nastiness, yet overlook it when it "works"?


My guess is that there is a difference of opinion among the leaders. Being a group that thrives on the appearance of unanimity and consensus, the leadership avoids internal conflict where possible, and the question of how far apologists should go in their efforts to protect the LDS Church is probably considered too unimportant to be a source of internal conflict.

I will note that the apologists appear to have successfully had their cake and eaten it too, at least thus far, when it comes to their association with the LDS Church. When necessary they stress the lack of official connection on something, but then they can turn around and hold forth evidence of GA approval when it suits them.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Daniel Peterson wrote: The recent thread about that, including the extraordinarily nasty things that GoodK said about his father when he knew that his father was following the thread, is responsible for any unusual recent strain.


False. I've said nothing extraordinarily nasty about him.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Trevor wrote:Well, that is the trick, isn't it? Knowing what to avoid and how far one can go. It looks like the safest thing to do, in order to preserve anonymity, is simply not to draw attention to one's self by criticizing another person repeatedly. Obviously, if one is willing to put one's full name to something, and bear the consequences, then that is what one should do.

I'll be quite frank here. If this is the future, then I will be calling it quits. I started out with something of a Robin Hood mentality about the whole thing. I was a grad student, and I didn't really think of what was truly at risk. I had the American tradition of pamphleteering under a pseudonym in mind. Being discontent with my experience in the LDS Church, I looked for an outlet and a community of fellow discontents to share it with.

Overall it has been a good experience. I have met lots of interesting people across the country and the world, and I have found that I am not alone in my sense of the problems the faith community of my youth labors under. One of my particular peeves has been the practice of apologetics, which I saw being undertaken in a spirit and tone contrary to the values I had grown up with. I still firmly believe that certain aspects of what goes on in the LDS apologetic community are deleterious to the LDS community. Whether those in power agree with me has never been my concern. My sense of right and wrong was my concern.


I weigh in on both sides of the question. At the moment I'm engaged in some heated debates on the Oz politics board I got this link from, and trying not to take sides while expressing my opinions. Basically, there is a poster, also a moderator, who has for several years now been very critical of Islam. He's a Christian who has an obsession with exposing Islam and portraying the majority of Muslims if not as terrorists, then as potential terrorists, or secretly supportive of terrorism. When I first went on the board last year I felt his criticisms bordered on fanatical, and I opposed many of his stereotypes of Muslims, but to no avail. So I ignored his posts on Islam, as did most on the BB, because for the most part he wasn't interested in reasonable discussion, but mainly in demonising Islam. It did really bore me. But a couple of weeks ago several Muslims decided to reply, and they were pretty angry. One said he might sue for personal defamation (for being personally called a terrorist), and to this date has said he's going to report the offending poster/moderator and the board Administrator to the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, for religious vilification, and attempt to have the BB shut down, unless the BB owner did something to stop the excessive criticisms and vilification of Islam. Note here too, that it was not the criticisms per se which offended, but the constant several years campaign to vilify Muslims. Although I could see their point of view, I opposed this radical move, and encouraged the Muslim posters to stay on the board and debate the criticisms by this poster, rather than trying to gag free speech. And it was very interesting when the Muslim posters came on, and many of their posts were effective in rebutting stereotypes. So my approach to this basically was according to the old adage, "I vigourously disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

At the moment, as things stand, the Muslim poster has restated that he will come good on his threat, and the offending poster has effectively been gagged. The board Administrator is not taking the threats seriously, no doubt on legal advice he has, and most of the other non-Muslim posters are now supporting the critic's right to free speech, though they seldom read what he wrote in the past. But that's also why I said I think this heralds the new future of the Internet. Vilification laws will be enforced (Oz does not have anything like the 1st Amendment), and this board in Oz may well become an Internet test case, because the laws are not adequately defined as they relate to the Internet, we are in early days yet, nor the avenues for successful prosecution. They are already in place in the electronic media, and any editor who steps out of line will find his sorry ass in court. I know of journalists who have been destroyed by this, and subsequently regretted ever doing what they did, because it left them in financial ruin. That is one reason I haven't written to the print media for two years now (after 13 years of doing so quite prolifically), because editors chop up what you write to avoid potential prosecution. The AJA (Australian Journalists Association) also has a code of ethics (I've added the bold):

AJA CODE OF ETHICS

Respect for truth and the public's right to information are fundamental principles of journalism. Journalists describe society to itself. They convey information, ideas and opinions, a privileged role. They search, disclose, record, question, entertain, suggest and remember. They inform citizens and animate democracy. They give a practical form to freedom of expression. Many journalists work in private enterprise, but all have these public responsibilities. They scrutinise power, but also exercise it, and should be accountable. Accountability engenders trust. Without trust, journalists do not fulfil their public responsibilities. MEAA members engaged in journalism commit themselves to

Honesty
Fairness
Independence
Respect for the rights of others
1. Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppress relevant available facts, or give distorting emphasis. Do your utmost to give a fair opportunity for reply.

2. Do not place unnecessary emphasis on personal characteristics, including race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, age, sexual orientation, family relationships, religious belief, or physical or intellectual disability.

3. Aim to attribute information to its source. Where a source seeks anonymity, do not agree without first considering the source’s motives and any alternative attributable source. Where confidences are accepted, respect them in all circumstances.

4. Do not allow personal interest, or any belief, commitment, payment, gift or benefit, to undermine your accuracy, fairness or independence.

5. Disclose conflicts of interest that affect, or could be seen to affect, the accuracy, fairness or independence of your journalism. Do not improperly use a journalistic position for personal gain.

6. Do not allow advertising or other commercial considerations to undermine accuracy, fairness or independence.

7. Do your utmost to ensure disclosure of any direct or indirect payment made for interviews, pictures, information or stories.

8. Use fair, responsible and honest means to obtain material. Identify yourself and your employer before obtaining any interview for publication or broadcast. Never exploit a person’s vulnerability or ignorance of media practice.

9. Present pictures and sound which are true and accurate. Any manipulation likely to mislead should be disclosed.

10. Do not plagiarise.

11. Respect private grief and personal privacy. Journalists have the right to resist compulsion to intrude.

12. Do your utmost to achieve fair correction of errors.

Guidance Clause

Basic values often need interpretation and sometimes come into conflict. Ethical journalism requires conscientious decision-making in context. Only substantial advancement of the public interest or risk of substantial harm to people allows any standard to be overridden.




It it very clear that "Hack and "Caz" thumbed their noses at this code, because they could do so anonymously, until they got caught. But I think what we're going to see (looking at my Seerstone here), are similar codes applied to the Internet, eventually, at least here in Oz. It will be a sad day if the Internet goes the way of the electronic media, but there is really only one way to stop this, and that is to do exactly what's now being done to Hack and Caz. Here is the answer to their blog, The Spin Starts Here: The Lulz Starts Here: http://thelulzstarthere.wordpress.com/

Legal avenues may not be the best course to take. The best course to take is shaming the offenders who flout accountability, and letting bloggernacle loose on them to serve as a warning to future offenders, which is what's happening. As a non-anonymous blogger I plan to keep blogging, but I'm not prepared to face prosecution or financial ruin, so I'm careful what I write in regard to the laws of defamation (in Oz), within the parameters still now allowed on the inadequately defined Internet, which could have retroactive consequences should more definitive laws materialise in future. I don't want ever to have to spend hours and hours pressing "delete", so I simply stay within the guidelines of fairness and accountability. If I'm going to attack someone I need to have my facts right, do so with my name signed to the criticisms, even if I have to protect my anonymous sources. Journalists are allowed to do this, unless society or individuals are under serious risk of harm.

Bottom line: I don't see any need to stop bogging, because I'm prepared to stay within reason on my blog, and it's none the less enjoyable. Most criticism is welcomed by the thinking public. What is shunned is the approach taken by Hack and Caz, because it is viewed as moral cowardice, people unwilling to accept accountability for what they write, and that is a gross infringement of the Journalists Code of Ethics. And here's another aspect we seldom think about: We want to be anonymous to protect ourselves from real harm, so the most prominent argument goes. So then, should we not be even more concerned about the potential harm to those who enter cyber-space using their real names, which gives them more credibility? And I think of Bob McCue here. It was okay for FAIR to "expose him", and in my opinion they are just as liable as Hack and Caz, and just as cowardly and shameful. This game will have no winners. And I will defend Mc Cue on this matter as I would anyone else, because though I might disagree with him, I admire his pluck to write what he does and sign his name to it. If people like Mc Cue can't do this without personal and anonymous and defamatory attacks on their personal lives, then in the end we will all be the losers.
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