Gazelam wrote:Homosexuals are neither of these. They are perverts. It is a sad and dreadful day we are seeing as this immoral choice of lifestyle is becoming more and more accepted. I see it in alot of the young apprentices that are joining the workforce. These types of topics come up in discussion, and they look at me all askew like I'm the crazy one for thinking this is sick and wrong.
I can remember as a kid hearing about how in the last days wrong would be seen as right and right would be seen as wrong. I remember thinking, "that's the dumbest thing I ever heard, how is that possible, everybody knows the difference between right and wrong". I think I was 8 years old at that time. I can see how its happened now. Apathy, Depravity, etc....
Remember when expressing racist views was acceptable to most people, even expected of you in certain quarters? Then it become less and less so, eventually becoming a shameful thing one must keep hidden in decent society? The same thing is happening with homophobia. At least you are able to anecdotatlly notice what is in the social data. You are a dying breed, and your beliefs are becoming ever more shameful. Some day, ancestors of yours will look upon you like you might look at racist ghosts in the past. What a legacy.
Poor Gazelam. "He was a just product of his time, limited by his culture," they'll say. But we know that is only partially accurate.
There is a huge difference here. Homosexuality is a Moral Choice. They are not born that way!
What else should I be morally ambiguous towards? When oh when will furries be allowed to make out in public without fear of persecution? When will it be acceptable by all members of society to break the legs and teeth off of gerbils and shove them up one anothers rectums? Perhaps we can start doing this at "Fun Girl" parties. Break it in slowly that way.
I'm not the socially retarded one here. I'm the one seeing the ground break apart and the landslide starting and begging everyone to stop hurling grenades.
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You didn't understand what I was trying to convey to you at all. I don't know why. I tried to be clear as I could be. I might come back to this thread later, I'm just too frustrated with this form of communication to try again right now.
Jersey
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
I can see how an ugly reference to a woman would be rude. That is insulting a gender. I can see how a racial slur is ugly, you insulting an entire race.
Homosexuals are neither of these. They are perverts. It is a sad and dreadful day we are seeing as this immoral choice of lifestyle is becoming more and more accepted. I see it in alot of the young apprentices that are joining the workforce. These types of topics come up in discussion, and they look at me all askew like I'm the crazy one for thinking this is sick and wrong.
Gaz
The LDS Church no longer claims this is necessarily a choice. Read the interview on LDS.org with Elder Oaks. Read the recent Ensign article by Elder Holland. You are behind the times of your own church on this Gaz.
There is a huge difference here. Homosexuality is a Moral Choice. They are not born that way!
What else should I be morally ambiguous towards? When oh when will furries be allowed to make out in public without fear of persecution? When will it be acceptable by all members of society to break the legs and teeth off of gerbils and shove them up one anothers rectums? Perhaps we can start doing this at "Fun Girl" parties. Break it in slowly that way.
I'm not the socially r******d one here. I'm the one seeing the ground break apart and the landslide starting and begging everyone to stop hurling grenades.
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Let’s say my 17-year-old son comes to talk to me and, after a great deal of difficulty trying to get it out, tells me that he believes that he’s attracted to men — that he has no interest and never has had any interest in girls. He believes he’s probably gay. He says that he’s tried to suppress these feelings. He’s remained celibate, but he realizes that his feelings are going to be devastating to the family because we’ve always talked about his Church mission, about his temple marriage and all those kinds of things. He just feels he can’t live what he thinks is a lie any longer, and so he comes in this very upset and depressed manner. What do I tell him as a parent?
ELDER OAKS: You’re my son. You will always be my son, and I’ll always be there to help you.
The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: If we were to look back at someone who had a ‘short fuse,’ and we were to look at their parents who might have had a short fuse, some might identify a genetic influence in that.
ELDER OAKS: No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God. It’s contrary to the whole teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which expresses the truth that by or through the power and mercy of Jesus Christ we will have the strength to do all things. That includes resisting temptation. That includes dealing with things that we’re born with, including disfigurements, or mental or physical incapacities. None of these stand in the way of our attaining our eternal destiny. The same may be said of a susceptibility or inclination to one behavior or another which if yielded to would prevent us from achieving our eternal destiny.
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’
ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.
ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important.
PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Both of you have mentioned the issue of compassion and this feeling about needing to be compassionate. Let’s fast-forward the scenario that we used earlier, and assume it’s a couple of years later. My conversations with my son, all our efforts to love our son and keep him in the Church have failed to address what he sees as the central issue — that he can’t help his feelings. He’s now told us that he’s moving out of the home. He plans to live with a gay friend. He’s adamant about it. What should be the proper response of a Latter-day Saint parent in that situation?
ELDER OAKS: It seems to me that a Latter-day Saint parent has a responsibility in love and gentleness to affirm the teaching of the Lord through His prophets that the course of action he is about to embark upon is sinful. While affirming our continued love for him, and affirming that the family continues to have its arms open to him, I think it would be well to review with him something like the following, which is a statement of the First Presidency in 1991: “The Lord’s law of moral conduct is abstinence outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between husband and wife, appropriately expressed within the bonds of marriage. Any other sexual conduct, including fornication, adultery, and homosexual and lesbian behavior is sinful. Those who persist in such practices or influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.”
My first responsibility as a father is to make sure that he understands that, and then to say to him, “My son, if you choose to deliberately engage in this kind of behavior, you’re still my son. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is powerful enough to reach out and cleanse you if you are repentant and give up your sinful behavior, but I urge you not to embark on that path because repentance is not easy. You’re embarking on a course of action that will weaken you in your ability to repent. It will cloud your perceptions of what is important in life. Finally, it may drag you down so far that you can’t come back. Don’t go that way. But if you choose to go that way, we will always try to help you and get you back on the path of growth.
No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God. It’s contrary to the whole teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which expresses the truth that by or through the power and mercy of Jesus Christ we will have the strength to do all things. That includes resisting temptation. That includes dealing with things that we’re born with, including disfigurements, or mental or physical incapacities. None of these stand in the way of our attaining our eternal destiny. The same may be said of a susceptibility or inclination to one behavior or another which if yielded to would prevent us from achieving our eternal destiny.
that's the part to focus on.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God. It’s contrary to the whole teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which expresses the truth that by or through the power and mercy of Jesus Christ we will have the strength to do all things. That includes resisting temptation. That includes dealing with things that we’re born with, including disfigurements, or mental or physical incapacities. None of these stand in the way of our attaining our eternal destiny. The same may be said of a susceptibility or inclination to one behavior or another which if yielded to would prevent us from achieving our eternal destiny.
that's the part to focus on.
But what the hell has that got to do with blood atonement?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb