FAIRwiki vs Dr. Shades

[_The Nehor]

I think the topic of his essay is a much more egregious oversimplification.

The topic? What a strange thing to say.

Topic is a bad word, conclusions may be better.

[_Dr. Shades]

I have not found myself fully agreeing with the essay.

When you say "the essay," are you referring to the FAIRwiki entry, or to my own definitive website on the subject, located at this link: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons . . . ?

And, I do have a difficult time understanding why an apologetic organization would be troubled enough by this to take the time to attempt a refutation.

Simple. As I pointed out, "The most interesting aspect of this dichotomy is that each group claims that its views are the 'true' Mormonism." In order to do this, FAIR is obliged to discount the existence of Chapel Mormons, just like they are obliged to nullify Rodney Meldrum.

I've met very few people I would classify as "Chapel Mormons" according to Shades definition and most of those are the zealots on the fringe of the religion.

So the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are "zealots on the fringe of the religion?"

That's a startling admission.

The core of the Church (the people who get the difficult, time-consuming callings, and live the Gospel) spend a great deal of time studying the Gospel critically.

They do?

[_Mister Scratch]

One of the things that I've always found funny about Shades's dichotomy is that, while I'm probably the archetypal "internet Mormon" -- adherent, according to Scratch, of an altogether distinct religion -- whenever I've taken one of Scratch's little diagnostic tests I always come out quite squarely as a "chapel Mormon."

Don't you mean "Shades"? I.e., that you are so obsessed with me that every person you perceive to be a critic automatically becomes "Scratch"?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Don't you mean "Shades"?

Yes, I meant "Shades."

I.e., that you are so obsessed with me that every person you perceive to be a critic automatically becomes "Scratch"?

How very Scratchian to draw a negatively-spun universal judgment from one simple mistake.

"All Indians walk in single-file lines," says Scratch. "At least, the one that I saw did. And he did it, no doubt, because he was ordered to do it by the SCMC and was paid $20K for walking that way. This is deeply sinister, a debacle for FARMS, and a watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics."

[_The Nehor]

I have not found myself fully agreeing with the essay.

When you say "the essay," are you referring to the FAIRwiki entry, or to my own definitive website on the subject, located at this link: Internet Mormons vs. Chapel Mormons . . . ?

And, I do have a difficult time understanding why an apologetic organization would be troubled enough by this to take the time to attempt a refutation.

Simple. As I pointed out, "The most interesting aspect of this dichotomy is that each group claims that its views are the 'true' Mormonism." In order to do this, FAIR is obliged to discount the existence of Chapel Mormons, just like they are obliged to nullify Rodney Meldrum.

I've met very few people I would classify as "Chapel Mormons" according to Shades definition and most of those are the zealots on the fringe of the religion.

So the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are "zealots on the fringe of the religion?"

That's a startling admission.

The core of the Church (the people who get the difficult, time-consuming callings, and live the Gospel) spend a great deal of time studying the Gospel critically.

They do?

Which one am I Shades? Chapel or Internet?

I don't think the Twelve fit your definition of Chapel Mormons. I was fortunate enough to spend some time with someone who spends a lot of time interacting casually with them. He told me of some of the things they debate/discuss amongst themselves.

Critically in the sense that they examine the texts and talks, use the Holy Ghost to sift out the wheat from the chaff (stuff that doesn't apply, is not useful to them, etc.) and work out ways to use it. I don't mean that they examine the latest General Conference talk with the mindset of, "Does this prove the Church untrue?"

[_TrashcanMan79]

Which one am I Shades? Chapel or Internet?

Just curious, Nehor, how do you answer these?


1. When science contradicts the prophets (regarding the age of the earth, for example), which/who is right?

A. Science. We just understood the prophet incorrectly.
B. The Prophets. Science is always changing anyway.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


2. When LDS apologists (F.A.R.M.S. and F.A.I.R., for example) contradict the prophets, who is right?

A. The Apologists. Prophets are not infallible and can make mistakes.
B. The Prophets. Apologists aren't called of God to teach and preach.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


3. Do the terms "Lamanite" and "Native American" refer to two entirely separate cultural and linguistic groups, or are the terms interchangeable?

A. "Lamanites" and "Native Americans" are two separate cultural and linguistic groups.
B. The terms are interchangeable.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


4. Was Noah's flood local or global?

A. It was a local event, covering perhaps a large part of Mesopotamia or the Black Sea area.
B. It was global and water covered the entire earth.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


5. When Lehi arrived in the Americas, were there lots of non-Jaredite Asiatic inhabitants already present?

A. Yes.
B. No.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


6. When discussing the words of the prophets, is God displeased if we say "it was only his opinion?"

A. No, God is not displeased.
B. Yes, God is displeased.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


7. Did the Nephites make their last stand against the Lamanites on a hill in Central America or on a hill in New York?

A. On a hill in Central America
B. On a hill in New York
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


8. Is binding Mormon doctrine to be found between the covers of the four Standard Works only, or can it be found elsewhere?

A. Between the covers of the four Standard Works only
B. Elsewhere, such as official church manuals, First Presidency statements, etc.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


9. Which is most likely to lead us to the truth: To "filter" a prophet's words through both his likely cultural influences and his limited sphere of knowledge, or to take his words at face value?

A. "Filtering" a prophet's words through both his likely cultural influences and his limited sphere of knowledge will most likely lead us to the truth.
B. Taking a prophet's words at face value will most likely lead us to the truth.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


10. Do a prophet's words apply to everyone he's addressing, or do his words sometimes not apply to some of the people he's addressing?

A. His words sometimes do not apply to some of the people he's addressing.
B. His words apply to everyone he's addressing.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


11. If a married couple uses birth control, is God displeased?

A. No
B. Yes
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


12. Did human beings evolve, or were Adam & Eve the first--and parentless--humans?

A. Human beings evolved.
B. Adam & Eve were the first humans.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information

[_The Nehor]

Which one am I Shades? Chapel or Internet?

Just curious, Nehor, how do you answer these?


1. When science contradicts the prophets (regarding the age of the earth, for example), which/who is right?

A. Science. We just understood the prophet incorrectly.
B. The Prophets. Science is always changing anyway.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


2. When LDS apologists (F.A.R.M.S. and F.A.I.R., for example) contradict the prophets, who is right?

A. The Apologists. Prophets are not infallible and can make mistakes.
B. The Prophets. Apologists aren't called of God to teach and preach.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


3. Do the terms "Lamanite" and "Native American" refer to two entirely separate cultural and linguistic groups, or are the terms interchangeable?

A. "Lamanites" and "Native Americans" are two separate cultural and linguistic groups.
B. The terms are interchangeable.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


4. Was Noah's flood local or global?

A. It was a local event, covering perhaps a large part of Mesopotamia or the Black Sea area.
B. It was global and water covered the entire earth.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


5. When Lehi arrived in the Americas, were there lots of non-Jaredite Asiatic inhabitants already present?

A. Yes.
B. No.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


6. When discussing the words of the prophets, is God displeased if we say "it was only his opinion?"

A. No, God is not displeased.
B. Yes, God is displeased.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


7. Did the Nephites make their last stand against the Lamanites on a hill in Central America or on a hill in New York?

A. On a hill in Central America
B. On a hill in New York
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


8. Is binding Mormon doctrine to be found between the covers of the four Standard Works only, or can it be found elsewhere?

A. Between the covers of the four Standard Works only
B. Elsewhere, such as official church manuals, First Presidency statements, etc.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


9. Which is most likely to lead us to the truth: To "filter" a prophet's words through both his likely cultural influences and his limited sphere of knowledge, or to take his words at face value?

A. "Filtering" a prophet's words through both his likely cultural influences and his limited sphere of knowledge will most likely lead us to the truth.
B. Taking a prophet's words at face value will most likely lead us to the truth.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


10. Do a prophet's words apply to everyone he's addressing, or do his words sometimes not apply to some of the people he's addressing?

A. His words sometimes do not apply to some of the people he's addressing.
B. His words apply to everyone he's addressing.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


11. If a married couple uses birth control, is God displeased?

A. No
B. Yes
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information


12. Did human beings evolve, or were Adam & Eve the first--and parentless--humans?

A. Human beings evolved.
B. Adam & Eve were the first humans.
C. Don't know / undecided / not enough information

1. C, though I don't see a disagreement.
2. B usually.
3. C, though I lean towards A
4. C, but I suspect A is correct.
5. C, but I'm thinking A is more likely then B.
6. C, though I imagine it depends on whether it actually is God's truth. See Holy Ghost on how to clarify.
7. C, though I suspect it was in New York.
8. C, I don't believe in binding Mormon doctrine.
9. C, filter them through the Holy Ghost.
10. A, but the Holy Ghost is needed on this point.
11. C, they need to ask God themselves.
12. C

How'd I do?

[_Buckeye]

Similar to Nehor, I found myself answering "c" to most everthing. Each question seemed to set up a false dichotomy. Maybe FAIR should create a rebuttal anti-mormon quiz with questions such as:

Is BYU's student body intellectually rigorous?

A) Yes, they are on par with the students of Yale, Stanford, Princeton, and other fine institutions.
B) No, they are all complete idiots
C) Don't know / undecided / not enough information

[_TrashcanMan79]

How'd I do?

Hard to say with all the C's, but in figuring in the answers you leaned toward, I have you being closer to an Intermo than a Chapmo. Maybe an Intermo with Chapmo tendencies?

[_The Dude]

If you believe there was a global flood, and think that geological and biological science is wrong, then you are using a chapel Mormon approach to resolve this conflict.

If you believe there was not a global flood, and think that prophets and scriptures were "wrong" or "speaking as men of limited understanding" or "men of their time" or if you think the stories were always meant to be myths and teaching tools, then you are using an internet Mormon approach to resolve this conflict.

Just think about the different conflicts and how you resolve them, and see which side you are holding constant and which side you are bending. Sometimes you might take the chapel road (bending secular knoweldge) and others you might take the internet road (bending scripture/prophets), depending on the issue.