Keeping Religious Zealots Out of Power

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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Good K,

Gaz, really, I like to avoid talking directly to idiots like yourself, but I just can't help myself.

Do you think having a television in your home might influence your children to be gay?

Or are you really scared they will be more tolerant of other human beings than you are?

Probably a little bit of both.


The problem is one of apathy. When something sick and wrong is continually presented as something normal a person becomes callous to it. I don't want my children to ever grow up in an enviorment where being a pervert is normal and acceptable.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Why do you keep ignoring your own apostles that state the church does not know if it is a choice or nature. Why do you ingnore the command to forgive all even if they do not repent?


Actually, what the Church has said, to the degree it has made a unanimous statement upon the subject, is that homosexuality is not inborn or innate. I quote Elder Oaks from a recent interview on the subject available here:

http://newsroom.LDS.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... attraction

Over past years we have seen unrelenting pressure from advocates of that lifestyle to accept as normal what is not normal...


The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear. It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.


I think it’s important for you to understand that homosexuality, which you’ve spoken of, is not a noun that describes a condition. It’s an adjective that describes feelings or behavior. I encourage you, as you struggle with these challenges, not to think of yourself as a ‘something’ or ‘another,’ except that you’re a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and you’re my son, and that you’re struggling with challenges.


Yes, homosexual feelings are controllable. Perhaps there is an inclination or susceptibility to such feelings that is a reality for some and not a reality for others. But out of such susceptibilities come feelings, and feelings are controllable. If we cater to the feelings, they increase the power of the temptation. If we yield to the temptation, we have committed sinful behavior.


We don’t understand exactly the ‘why,’ or the extent to which there are inclinations or susceptibilities and so on. But what we do know is that feelings can be controlled and behavior can be controlled. The line of sin is between the feelings and the behavior. The line of prudence is between the susceptibility and the feelings. We need to lay hold on the feelings and try to control them to keep us from getting into a circumstance that leads to sinful behavior.



...we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God.


PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’

ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.


We should also not forget Elder Oaks statements on the matter from his definitive talk of 1996:

We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns to identify particular conditions or specific persons. Our religious doctrine dictates this usage. It is wrong to use these words to denote a condition, because this implies that a person is consigned by birth to a circumstance in which he or she has no choice in respect to the critically important matter of sexual behavior.


Just as some people have different feelings than others, some people seem to be unusually susceptible to particular actions, reactions, or addictions. Perhaps such susceptibilities are inborn or acquired without personal choice or fault, like the unnamed ailment the Apostle Paul called “a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure” (2 Cor. 12:7). One person may have feelings that draw him toward gambling, but unlike those who only dabble, he becomes a compulsive gambler. Another person may have a taste for tobacco and a susceptibility to its addiction. Still another may have an unusual attraction to alcohol and the vulnerability to be readily propelled into alcoholism. Other examples may include a hot temper, a contentious manner, a covetous attitude, and so on.

In each case (and in other examples that could be given) the feelings or other characteristics that increase susceptibility to certain behavior may have some relationship to inheritance. But the relationship is probably very complex. The inherited element may be nothing more than an increased likelihood that an individual will acquire certain feelings if he or she encounters particular influences during the developmental years. But regardless of our different susceptibilities or vulnerabilities, which represent only variations on our mortal freedom (in mortality we are only “free according to the flesh” [2 Ne. 2:27]), we remain responsible for the exercise of our agency in the thoughts we entertain and the behavior we choose. I



I really don't think it quite accurate to describe the Church's neutrality on the scientific issue as on of "not knowing". The Church is neutral on the scientific issue, but the Gospel does not seem to be, and Elder Oaks' teaching of the Gospel here would indicate that the Church, to the extent his statements are view as authoritative, perceives the origins of homosexuality, for all intents and purposes, pretty much as the present scientific knowledge allows: that homosexuality's origins are a deeply complex and unique stew of social, psychological, and, in some number of cases, biological biases, susceptibilities, and predispositions, a set of complex dynamics that is going to be very difficult-if not impossible-to disentangle one from another.

Note that the Church's position here, through Oaks, is not regarding the orgins of homosexual behavior or the homosexual identity (Gay), but of homosexual feelings, inclinations, or susceptibilities which are differentiated from one another very clearly. This must be the case if the cardinal doctrines of agency and the fairness and integrity of the Plan of Salvation are to be preserved.

I think Oaks teaching here provides a great deal of nourishing food for thought, especially in its central contention that while many things, homosexual perceptual biases being one, have some genetic component to their origin, none of this determines our behavior or sets us firmly, in a deterministic manner, upon some inexorable and predetermined course.

And this is where the Church and the world part company and lock horns.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:I don't want my children to ever grow up in an enviorment where being a pervert is normal and acceptable.


Gaz, you may not find it "acceptable" (largely because of your personal religious belief spiced possibly with an innate distaste for homosexuality), but, hypothetically, what would you seriously do if one of your sons turned out gay? He tells you this when he's about 16 (thus having avoided a watery death).
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Jason,

A repentant adulterer can be forgiven and the sealing can still be in effect. Where do you get this strange idea?


After a person has advanced in righteousness, light, and truth to the point that the fulness of the ordinances of the house of the Lord have been received so that he has been sealed up unto eternal life, and his calling and election has been made sure, then as expressed in the Prophets language, the law is: "if a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom." (History of the Church, vol.6, p.81; [i]Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, pp.92-94
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Beastie,

You're a homophobe, gaze.


The term phobia implies fear. I don't fear homosexuals. They just make me want to throw up. I also cannot for the life of me understand how this has become so acceptable. It baffles me.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:Jason,

After a person has advanced in righteousness, light, and truth to the point that the fulness of the ordinances of the house of the Lord have been received so that he has been sealed up unto eternal life, and his calling and election has been made sure, then as expressed in the Prophets language, the law is: "if a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom." (History of the Church, vol.6, p.81; [i]Doctrines of Salvation, vol.2, pp.92-94


Not according to Section 132:

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Gaz, you may not find it "acceptable" (largely because of your personal religious belief spiced possibly with an innate distaste for homosexuality), but, hypothetically, what would you seriously do if one of your sons turned out gay? He tells you this when he's about 16 (thus having avoided a watery death).



My biological Son came out as "Gay" about 10 years ago. Since then, he abandoned the entire thing, has fathered a child (out of wedlock, unfortunately), and has not, to my or anyone else's knowledge in the family, pursued it further.

This is actually far more common then homosexual activists and their liberal cheerleaders would like the general public to believe.

"Sexual orientation" is actually, at least under certain conditions and especially in childhood, much more plastic and fluid than the biological determinists would have us believe, and a number of those susceptible to gender identity problems go through phases or seasons of experimentation or confusion throughout parts of their lives. With those identifying as unambiguous and exclusively homosexual at a vanishing small 3% of the population, there are any number of other dynamics at work in influencing the final course a person actually takes. The point is that, while heterosexuality is the biological, social, and psychological norm, it can be mutated, distorted, and altered in its normal developmental course (as can other developmental tasks of psychological/emotional growth) under various conditions and within certain experiential contexts.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Gazelam
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

Ray A wrote:
Gazelam wrote:I don't want my children to ever grow up in an enviorment where being a pervert is normal and acceptable.


Gaz, you may not find it "acceptable" (largely because of your personal religious belief spiced possibly with an innate distaste for homosexuality), but, hypothetically, what would you seriously do if one of your sons turned out gay? He tells you this when he's about 16 (thus having avoided a watery death).


I don't believe this could possibly ever happen, seeing as how I spend time with and talk to my kids in a respectful manner. I don't allow them to see media that promotes immoral behavior. They have parents who love one another and they have been taught the purpose of life and the nature of God and the universe.

To become homosexual they would have to purposefully abandon everything they have been raised to believe and understand regarding their own self and their understanding of the world around them.

To answer your hypothetical, if I were to see them acting on this mentality, they would not be welcome in my home. they woudl have to find some place else to live and someone else to support them.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Gazelam wrote:
Ray A wrote:
Gazelam wrote:I don't want my children to ever grow up in an enviorment where being a pervert is normal and acceptable.


Gaz, you may not find it "acceptable" (largely because of your personal religious belief spiced possibly with an innate distaste for homosexuality), but, hypothetically, what would you seriously do if one of your sons turned out gay? He tells you this when he's about 16 (thus having avoided a watery death).


I don't believe this could possibly ever happen, seeing as how I spend time with and talk to my kids in a respectful manner. I don't allow them to see media that promotes immoral behavior. They have parents who love one another and they have been taught the purpose of life and the nature of God and the universe.

To become homosexual they would have to purposefully abandon everything they have been raised to believe and understand regarding their own self and their understanding of the world around them.

To answer your hypothetical, if I were to see them acting on this mentality, they would not be welcome in my home. they woudl have to find some place else to live and someone else to support them.


Are you saying you'd throw your (hypothetical) 16 year old out of the house?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Jersey,

Are you saying you'd throw your (hypothetical) 16 year old out of the house?



If he/she were acting on this behavior..... Yes
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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