Please explain this to me

[_beastie]

I believe that the most fervent opponents of gay marriage believe that God will remove his "hand of protection" from the US if we, as a nation, condone such sin. He will let the terrorists, or tornadoes, or hurricanes, or tsunamis, get us.

There are others who are not so fervent in their opposition who are probably just fearful of the unknown or change.

Our society saw very similar arguments in the past against interracial marriage.

Obviously, heterosexual marriages are under threat from heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

[_The Nehor]

Yes, heteros have done horribly with it. Based on the evidence, homosexuals will do much, much worse. I want marriage to be healed. Not written off as a lost cause.

You know, usually I find you good for a laugh, but sometimes, you post some incredibly dumbass $h*t, like what I just quoted. There's a part of me that hopes you were trying to be funny and simply failed.

Would you care to dispute what I said?

Well, I wouldn't be able to dispute it if you could produce the evidence of which you speak.

All the gay rights websites I looked at didn't refute this point beyond denying it (with no evidence).

For a quick recitation of studies and a healthy back and forth I suggest this debate: http://www.debate.com/debates/Homosexua ... ociety./1/

Edit: While not complete it does include many of the studies I've looked at in the past.

[_The Nehor]

Oh, and with gays try the upper nineties for percentages of those who are not faithful. Many of the spouses wouldn't care though as they're doing the same thing.

CFR

In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that, in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to 37 years, only seven couples had a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all had been together for less than five years.

In their classic 1978 study, published as Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, researchers Bell and Weinberg found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having one thousand or more sex partners.

The 2003-2004 Gay/Lesbian Consumer Online Census surveyed the lifestyles of 7,862 homosexuals. Of those involved in a "current relationship," only 15 percent describe their current relationship as having lasted twelve years or longer, with five percent lasting more than twenty years. While this "snapshot in time" is not an absolute predictor of the length of homosexual relationships, it does indicate that few homosexual relationships achieve the longevity common in marriages.

A study of homosexual men in the Netherlands published in the journal AIDS found that the "duration of steady partnerships" was 1.5 years.

A Canadian study of homosexual men who had been in committed relationships lasting longer than one year found that only 25 percent of those interviewed reported being monogamous." According to study author Barry Adam, "Gay culture allows men to explore different...forms of relationships besides the monogamy coveted by heterosexuals."

The Handbook of Family Diversity reported a study in which "many self-described 'monogamous' couples reported an average of three to five partners in the past year. Blasband and Peplau (1985) observed a similar pattern.

In their Journal of Sex Research study of the sexual practices of older homosexual men, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that only 2.7 percent of older homosexuals had only one sexual partner in their lifetime.


This is the tip of the iceberg. There is an argument of course that legalizing gay marriage would make it more likely for couples to stay together and while it might be true to a degree I don't think it would even come close to making the statistics match those of heterosexual relationships.

I have homosexual friends. Most of them when we talk about gay marriage say they see it as different then traditional marriage. It would allow for 'sexual play' outside the relationship with emotional intimacy and fidelity being most important. What I've read suggests they are not an isolated pocket but that gay culture as a whole agrees with them.

[_The Nehor]

So Nehor, let me see if I understand your argument:

Heterosexuals have done a bad job with marriage, therefore, we shouldn't give it to homosexuals because they would make it worse? Is that the long and short of it?

That's a good portion of it but not all. This is in addition to their attempt to redefine marriage to not include sexual fidelity.

I also do not want homosexuality legitimized. I believe it is a sin and if encouraged and permitted will lead to the degradation of society. Giving it legal sanction is encouraging it.

I'm enough of a pessimist though to believe that this battle will likely be lost if not now then within the next 10 years.

[_Scottie]

Oh, and with gays try the upper nineties for percentages of those who are not faithful. Many of the spouses wouldn't care though as they're doing the same thing.

CFR

In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that, in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to 37 years, only seven couples had a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all had been together for less than five years.

In their classic 1978 study, published as Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, researchers Bell and Weinberg found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having one thousand or more sex partners.

The 2003-2004 Gay/Lesbian Consumer Online Census surveyed the lifestyles of 7,862 homosexuals. Of those involved in a "current relationship," only 15 percent describe their current relationship as having lasted twelve years or longer, with five percent lasting more than twenty years. While this "snapshot in time" is not an absolute predictor of the length of homosexual relationships, it does indicate that few homosexual relationships achieve the longevity common in marriages.

A study of homosexual men in the Netherlands published in the journal AIDS found that the "duration of steady partnerships" was 1.5 years.

A Canadian study of homosexual men who had been in committed relationships lasting longer than one year found that only 25 percent of those interviewed reported being monogamous." According to study author Barry Adam, "Gay culture allows men to explore different...forms of relationships besides the monogamy coveted by heterosexuals."

The Handbook of Family Diversity reported a study in which "many self-described 'monogamous' couples reported an average of three to five partners in the past year. Blasband and Peplau (1985) observed a similar pattern.

In their Journal of Sex Research study of the sexual practices of older homosexual men, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that only 2.7 percent of older homosexuals had only one sexual partner in their lifetime.


This is the tip of the iceberg. There is an argument of course that legalizing gay marriage would make it more likely for couples to stay together and while it might be true to a degree I don't think it would even come close to making the statistics match those of heterosexual relationships.

I have homosexual friends. Most of them when we talk about gay marriage say they see it as different then traditional marriage. It would allow for 'sexual play' outside the relationship with emotional intimacy and fidelity being most important. What I've read suggests they are not an isolated pocket but that gay culture as a whole agrees with them.

Very interesting. Thanks for the references.

[_beastie]

Whether or not gays are more promiscuous than heteros depends on the study used.

http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/gayhealth.html#prom

This page critiques the most commonly cited study to support the allegation of increased promiscuity.

This is all a dodge, anyway. Plenty of extremely promiscuous heterosexuals get married, and no one does a thing to stop them.

[_The Nehor]

Whether or not gays are more promiscuous than heteros depends on the study used.

http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/gayhealth.html#prom

This page critiques the most commonly cited study to support the allegation of increased promiscuity.

This is all a dodge, anyway. Plenty of extremely promiscuous heterosexuals get married, and no one does a thing to stop them.

Would you support legislation designed to stop them? I would.

[_Some Schmo]

So Nehor, let me see if I understand your argument:

Heterosexuals have done a bad job with marriage, therefore, we shouldn't give it to homosexuals because they would make it worse? Is that the long and short of it?

That's a good portion of it but not all. This is in addition to their attempt to redefine marriage to not include sexual fidelity.

Well, here's the problem with that argument: it is not logical nor fair to punish one group based on the behavior of another group. That's like saying "Women often wear skimpy bikinis, therefore, men should be allowed to wear bathing suits." It makes no sense.

And the fact of the matter is that there are already many heterosexual people who define marriage in the way you fear. Ever heard of swingers? The question is, if both parties agree to those terms in their marital contract, what's the big deal?

I also do not want homosexuality legitimized. I believe it is a sin and if encouraged and permitted will lead to the degradation of society. Giving it legal sanction is encouraging it.

But it's already legitimate. People really are attracted to people of the same sex. There's no getting around that.

Again, I challenge you (or anyone) to come up with a valid example of how society will degrade if there are more people doing what they really want to do if it isn't hurting anyone else. Can't you just admit that your only real objection to it is that it makes you uncomfortable to think of doing it yourself, but doesn't have any real detrimental impacts on anyone else?

I mean, musicals make me uncomfortable. Should I be of the opinion that musicals should be outlawed because they lead to the degradation of society? Allowing musicals to take place is encouraging more musicals.

It's just so senseless.

[_beastie]

Would you support legislation designed to stop them? I would.

Of course not. And I venture to guess the vast majority of people who oppose gay marriage would NOT support legislation to stop promiscuous heteros from marrying. Most of the time, when promiscuous people get married (particularly males), society hopes it will "calm them down".

Kind of like what some folks are suggesting could occur with gays.

Besides, how in the world would you enact that kind of legislation???? Maybe we should have sex police, the way they do in strict Muslim countries.

Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of people who enter into marriage with the expectation that it will be "open". Percentages vary on exactly how many that is, but some say it's as high as 6%, while others think it's lower, around 4%. But even at the lower percentage, we're talking about a huge number of heterosexuals who do not require sexual exclusivity as part of their marriage.

So why doesn't your "side" work on cleaning up all this, first. Find a way to mandate and legislate that heterosexuals marry only with the expectation of exclusivity, and prevent promiscuous people from marrying. Then you can worry about the gays.

[_asbestosman]

I believe that the most fervent opponents of gay marriage believe that God will remove his "hand of protection" from the US if we, as a nation, condone such sin. He will let the terrorists, or tornadoes, or hurricanes, or tsunamis, get us.

There are others who are not so fervent in their opposition who are probably just fearful of the unknown or change.

That may or may not be the case. I'm not afraid of those things because I have not heard the brethren give them as reasons. All I know is that the brethren know it's important to oppose gay marriage. I don't always know why doctor instructs me the way he does, but I'm pretty sure he's right.