Swine in the Old Testament / tapir in the New World.

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_Danna

Re: Swine in the Old Testament / tapir in the New World.

Post by _Danna »

Matt Amos wrote:
The term flocks could have included such smaller animals much used by native peoples in Mesoamerica as hares, rabbits, and the paca and agouti (both rodents the size of small pigs).

Dogs are mentioned at five places in the Book of Mormon, but nothing is said of their use. Two types (perhaps two species) were common in Mesoamerica. The large, white, humped mastiff (Nahuatl itzcuintepotzotli) was the creature whose noisy descendants plague Mexican villages today. A smaller, hairless sort (Nahuatl xoloitzcuintli) was fattened and eaten as a delicacy. The Spaniards relished the flesh of these animals at the time of the conquest, although they would have been offended, as most of us would be, at being offered the flesh of the bigger dog. Perhaps Nephite "flocks" included fattened dogs." (Sorenson, John L. An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. FARMS, 1985. P. 292-3).


Hares, rabbits, two types of rodents (paca and agouti), and dogs. Doesn't that make 5 of 5 unclean animals that the Law-of-Moses-honoring Nephites would NOT have used for food?


Absolutely. Now I am trying to visualise King Limhi's people herding assorted rodents and small dogs as they flee the Lamanites!

I have eaten puppy steaks before, not too bad actually. (Didn't know it at the time of course, until a table-mate pointed out that the small succulent steaks could not be chicken, and the only animals in the village - in East Timor - were chickens and dogs). My now husband who was in a different part of the island tells me that puppy is fine, but when you get served up stringy old dog, you have no doubt about what you are eating.
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Post by _Hally McIlrath »

bcspace wrote:I am using it with the same connotation as found in the Simpsons episode "Lisa the Iconoclast".....


Sorry...I don't spend a lot of time watching t.v.... Don't you guys just say what you mean, instead of quoting cartoons?

If he saw the animal, it was what we would call a horse. If he saw a word, it was a word describing what we would call a horse and therefore was translated as "horse".


Okay, thanks for clarifying.

Don't have one.


Okay. Thanks anyway. :)
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Post by _Hally McIlrath »

Danna and Matt, thank you so much for your posts; really fascinating.

I've been wondering just how "Jewish" the Book of Mormon really is. I've actually heard Mormons claim that a Rabbi (or Rabbis?) commented that the Book of Mormon is extremely Jewish, but I've never gotten that sense from it, myself. As an English major, I've taken a course in Jewish literature, so that's the extent of my experience in judging the merits of any particular piece of work for its "Jewishness." (In other words, not much.)

Anyway, it will make for an interesting side-study. Thanks for the resources you posted.
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Post by _bcspace »

I am using it with the same connotation as found in the Simpsons episode "Lisa the Iconoclast".....

Sorry...I don't spend a lot of time watching t.v.... Don't you guys just say what you mean, instead of quoting cartoons?


It's perfectly cromulent to speak in pop culture. Funny that you recognized it as a neologism.....

If he saw the animal, it was what we would call a horse. If he saw a word, it was a word describing what we would call a horse and therefore was translated as "horse".

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

Don't have one.

Okay. Thanks anyway. :)


You're welcome!
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Post by _Hally McIlrath »

bcspace wrote:It's perfectly cromulent to speak in pop culture. Funny that you recognized it as a neologism.....



I'm an English major, bcspace; I know a neologism when I see one.
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Post by _beastie »

I think that many apologists don't believe that the transplanted Jews continued to adhere to the strict regulations of Judaism because they became "Christians" instead.

And just have to comment on this:

Mmmmm . . . feces!


Funny, that's the same thing that often comes into my mind when I deal with apologetics.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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Post by _Hally McIlrath »

beastie wrote:I think that many apologists don't believe that the transplanted Jews continued to adhere to the strict regulations of Judaism because they became "Christians" instead.




But they couldn't act as Christians before the advent of Christ, by definition.
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
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Post by _The Nehor »

Hally McIlrath wrote:
beastie wrote:I think that many apologists don't believe that the transplanted Jews continued to adhere to the strict regulations of Judaism because they became "Christians" instead.




But they couldn't act as Christians before the advent of Christ, by definition.


Unless of course Christ were to visit them in which case they might pick up some Christian traits and (surprise surprise) this is just what happens as we find both Nephi and Jacob have interactions with him.
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Post by _beastie »

But they couldn't act as Christians before the advent of Christ, by definition.


Not according to some apologists, who say that Nephi's detailed vision was sufficient for them to act as "Christians" from then on.

They really have no choice but to maintain this, because even aside from the tapir, the Book of Mormon does not describe a people concerned with keeping Jewish festivals and dietary regulations.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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No need to speculate...

Post by _Matt Amos »

The Nehor wrote:
Hally McIlrath wrote:
beastie wrote:I think that many apologists don't believe that the transplanted Jews continued to adhere to the strict regulations of Judaism because they became "Christians" instead.




But they couldn't act as Christians before the advent of Christ, by definition.


Unless of course Christ were to visit them in which case they might pick up some Christian traits and (surprise surprise) this is just what happens as we find both Nephi and Jacob have interactions with him.


This type of speculation is entirely unnecessary. The text of the Book of Mormon makes it clear that the Nephites did adhere to the Law of Moses. Here are several examples (I could have included more than twice as many):
2 Nephi 5:10 And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the law of Moses.
11 And the Lord was with us; and we did prosper exceedingly; for we did sow seed, and we did reap again in abundance. And we began to raise flocks, and herds, and animals of every kind.

2 Nephi 25:24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

Jarom 1:5 And now, behold, two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to keep the law of Moses and the sabbath day holy unto the Lord. And they profaned not; neither did they blaspheme. And the laws of the land were exceedingly strict.

Mosiah 2:3 And they also took of the firstlings of their flocks, that they might offer sacrifice and burnt offerings according to the law of Moses;

Alma 25:15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

Alma 30:3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to keep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled.



Until Christ finally arrives on the scene and announces that the law has been fulfilled:
3 Nephi 15:4 Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.
5 Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.
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