MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
truth dancer wrote:As I have stated many times.... the way to deal with messy issues from a PR standpoint is to have some expert give just enough of the truth to have it out there, while providing the apologetic spin. This is PR 101.

I think this is the approach the church is taking and I think we will continue to see more of this.

No, I don't blame the church nor am I bitching about it. The church is not the only org who handles messy stuff in this way. Have you ever noticed how big companies handle problems? Politicians? The military? This approach is very effective.

It's simply absurd to treat Ron Walker, Glen Leonard, Rick Turley, and Richard Bushman [!!!] as if they were, first and foremost (or even to any signficant degree), PR agents rather than highly regarded, widely respected, and very accomplished professional historians.
Dan, did you overlook the fact that these three historians are not only LDS, but WORK FOR LDS Inc?

If LDS Inc really wanted to make a point with this book, they would have had the work done by an unbiased outside party. You did see the PBS special "The Mormons" right? You were in it with your hat trick quote, remember?
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

James Clifford Miller wrote:Could you please double check, Dr. Peterson? I thought Richard Turley was an attorney and did not have any kind of a history degree. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

He has the same number of graduate history degrees that Leonard Arrington and Juanita Brooks and Fawn Brodie had, and precisely the same number of graduate history degrees that Will Bagley has.

The fact is that he's been managing director of the Church Historical Department for roughly twenty years, and had already published a considerable amount on Mormon history prior to co-authoring Massacre at Mountain Meadows, including Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hofmann Case (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1992). My bet is that, if Oxford University Press -- arguably the most prestigious academic press in the English-speaking world, and one that does rigorous peer review in order to protect its reputation -- had found Massacre at Mountain Meadows embarrassingly amateurish, Oxford University Press would not have published it.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Dan, did you overlook the fact that these three historians are not only LDS, but WORK FOR LDS Inc?

You're working your way up to a classic ad hominem fallacy, I suppose, but, even though I have no expectation that you'll acknowledge the point, I have to repeat that the principal -- and far and away the best -- method for evaluating a book is carefully to read the book.

I don't think that this idea is really very controversial among normal people.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Dan, did you overlook the fact that these three historians are not only LDS, but WORK FOR LDS Inc?

You're working your way up to a classic ad hominem fallacy, I suppose, but, even though I have no expectation that you'll acknowledge the point, I have to repeat that the principal -- and far and away the best -- method for evaluating a book is carefully to read the book.

I don't think that this idea is really very controversial among normal people.
Why would I read this book? I have no need to believe in Mormonism. Besides, I already know who did it.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Why would I read this book? I have no need to believe in Mormonism. Besides, I already know who did it.

Whatever. As I always say, Let sleeping dogmatists lie.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:Bushman wrote an honest well balanced open book. Did you read that one? He should be applauded and he did a fine job at it and was honest and open and continues to be so. If I recall you were pleased with his comments to the press about current temple sealing policy. But RSR can hardly be called faith promoting at all.
Bushman and this new MMM book are cattle prod in the hands of the bishops, used to scare the wondering sheep back into the corral.

Look! These books were authored by active members and one was funded by the church itself! I and my bishopric have read both and like the authors have not lost our testiphonies, and neither should you... zzzzapp! zzzzzzapppp!



Did you read the book?

Keep bitching dud.
Why would I read Bushman's book when I have already read Palmer's? Besides that, unlike you, I have no need to believe in Mormonism.

Not only have I read his book, I know him personally and have met with him on several occasions. in my opinion, he is an upstanding man with nothing but the conviction for truth in his heart.
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Why would I read Bushman's book when I already read Palmer's?

Beware the man of one book.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Why would I read Bushman's book when I already read Palmer's?

Beware the man of one book.
Likewise, follower of Joseph Smith.
_James Clifford Miller
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Post by _James Clifford Miller »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
James Clifford Miller wrote:It contains classic LDS doubletalk so Chapel Mormons will leave its pages with the age-old Official message that (1) Brigham Young didn't order it, (2) the people on the wagon train had it coming, and (3) the Indians did it, anyway.

I just picked up my own copy of Massacre at Mountain Meadows, and will shortly begin to read it.

I'm wondering whether I, as a Shades-certified "Chapel Mormon," will come away from it with the same impressions that you say you have.

In all that I've heard from the authors, both publicly and in conversation, and in all that I've seen from them in print, they have indeed said that the evidence indicates that Brigham Young didn't order it. But they have emphatically denied that the people in the wagon train "had it coming," and have been quite willing to say that the southern Utah Mormons who were involved bear principal if, indeed, not sole guilt for the massacre. If, contradicting all of their public statements, they have really written that "the people on the wagon train had it coming" and that "the Indians did it, anyway," there will be, to put it mildly, an enormous scandal and outcry. I'll be watching for that.

I have you at a disadvantage, Dr. Peterson, having actually read the book myself where you have just started.

I can tell you, as you'll discover for yourself, that the book DOES explicitly state that the people didn't have it coming. This way critics can't claim it doesn't make the statement. But it also spends much of the narrative on the rumors and presents the southern Utah leaders and populace as reacting to the information in the rumors. Of course, if they're not true, then the southern Utah leaders and populace couldn't be reacting to them. But by focusing a significant amount of narrative on the rumors and their effect in southern Utah, I'm sure Chapel Mormons will remember that part and discount the "they didn't have it coming" part as inconsistent with what they've been taught.

Similarly, the book DOES explicitly state that the vast bulk of the fighting and killing was done by white men and white men disguised as indians. THis way critics can't claim that it doesn't make the statement. But then the book spends much of the narrative on the Indians' fighting and killing that, so much that I'm sure Chapel Mormons will remember that and discount the "white men did most of the killing" part as inconsistent with what they've been taught.

So the critics have been silenced, and the Chapel Mormons get to keep their prior understanding. I wonder if Mr. Turley learned that trick in court when he was still a practicing attorney? "The Indians did much of the killing and fighting?" "Objection!" Judge: "Sustained! The jury will disregard that testimony as contradictory." "The people on the wagon train had it coming?" "Objection!" Judge: "Sustained! The jury will disregard that testimony as contradictor."

It's just like the movie, "Anatomy of a Murder" when Lt. Manion asks his counsel, Paul Biegler (Jimmie Stewart), "how can the jury disregard those remarks?" Biegler responds, "That's just it -- they can't."

James Clifford Miller
_Daniel Peterson
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Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:Why would I read Bushman's book when I already read Palmer's?

Beware the man of one book.

Likewise, follower of Joseph Smith.

ROTFL.

If you could see where I'm sitting right now -- in one of two adjoining rooms in my basement with built-in ceiling-to-floor bookshelves on every wall, which still can't hold the hundreds and hundreds of books in most of the other rooms of my house, to say nothing of the books in my two campus offices -- perhaps even you would recognize how silly it is to try to portray me, of all people, as a "man of one book."

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Why would I read Bushman's book when I have already read Palmer's?

It's impossible not to think of the story told about the Caliph ‘Umar, when the Muslims conquered Egypt. When he heard reports about the great Library of Alexandria, he ordered his troops to burn it. "If those books contradict the Qur’an," he said, "they're false. And if they say the same thing, they're unnecessary."

Of course, the story is a totally bogus bit of anti-Muslim propaganda -- the Library had been destroyed centuries before the Arab conquest -- but the spirit of the fictionalized ‘Umar plainliy lives on in B&L, a man of one book.
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