Letter from TBM friend... Prepare to be converted

[_Dr. Shades]

He speaks sorta like I do when i can't be assed.

I'm proud to say that I can never be assed.

[_Hally McIlrath]

I posted this on postmormon.org, but wanted to see if anyone has anything to counter his "amazing arguments."

There's TONS, of course, to counter the polygamy claim alone. Why not just focus on that one issue he has. Don't try to answer everything at once; it all just gets bogged down and lost in the noise. Just take polygamy, alone, and say, "Would you believe the Church's own genealogy website? Because here's the link to Joseph Smith's full genealogy, complete with the list of his wives."

And then post this: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167

Short and sweet. You can go from there.

Edited to add: he'll have to enter the information on Joseph into the search interface, since apparently you can't link to the page directly.

[MODERATOR NOTE: Link fixed by Dr. Shades. If you find that you can't post a link to a certain page, simply right-click somewhere in the page itself, then copy the information to the right of the "URL:" heading. Works every time. This is especially useful when posting links to specific posts on RfM.]

I think this is just further proof of the disparity between the "chapel" and "internet" Mormons. My dad also denied that Joseph had any wives other than Emma, and the Smith side of my family has been Mormon since the very beginning. They should know better. PLUS I'm descended from Lot Smith, who had a nice little harem all of his own, yet my dad has no clue Joseph ever took more than one wife.

I told my dad to do the same thing, but I doubt he has ever so much as considered looking. It's all an "anti lie," even though it's on the Church's own website.

[_gramps]

Hi!

She (?) seems really scared, doesn't she?

There are two things right off the bat: this won't be the last letter you get and they will all be basically the same.

I would definitely write a letter as a response. I probably wouldn't send it however.

Use this as a time to organise your thoughts and organise your research. Keep the letter for your history. It is fun to go back and watch everything crystallize over time.

Take care of yourselves.

HE, she said in the first line "Him"

Thanks. I was too lazy to go back four posts and check it. Oh well. :)

[_TrashcanMan79]

I'm proud to say that I can never be assed.

You just haven't met the right guy.

Don't knock it till you try it.

[_beastie]

You know me well enough to know that I would/could never return to a religion that I believed was abusive or manipulative.

He contradicted himself right within his own letter. He has returned to a religion that has been abusive and manipulative. He believes polygamy was abusive. He knows that BY insisted Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. If he studied "primary sources" (doubtful) then he would know that the LDS church, during its dispute with the RLDS, obtained statements from many of Joseph Smith' wives swearing that they were, indeed, married to Joseph Smith.

So if this wasn't true, and Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy - then the church - its leaders as well as its members who were so willing to lie - were manipulative, at the very least.

Of course it won't do any good to point this out.

[_antishock8]

Well, if the Mormon is a friend I would have said, "Cool. Now that's behind us let's get together this weekend, bbq, and watch some UFC." Friendships are more important than religious persuasion. If your friend brings the topic up, just say you don't want to talk about it, maybe refer him to LDS.org and have him do a Joseph Smith geneology search. Then leave it be.

[_Yoda]

Congrats. You sent me my first love bomb, something I plan on showing my children when I explain the cult checklist. I am not going to sit here and defend my beliefs to you. In fact, I'm not going to explain why I believe you are so disallusioned. I believe you are happy in the church...and no matter what I said, you would twist things. I'm not going to waste our time.
I am not going to attack your morals or integrity. I am not going to throw things you did in your face. that's really not my style. I am going to take the higher road.
I am, however, going to request that this be the end of the road for us. I am taking your advice and getting rid of the poison in my life.
I appreciate the eye opener!

Welcome to the board, Deb! :)

This is a beautiful response. I wouldn't deal with this person in any way, anymore. There is no point in doing research or trying to prove anything to this person. He showed his true colors by doing two things a friend should never do:

1. Throw mistakes back in your face that were told in confidence.

2. Encouraging you to leave your husband who you are happy with, and has obviously not mistreated you in any way.

I don't care how successful you say this guy is. He's a loser. Leave him be, and cultivate new friends who can be a healthy support to you.

[_Blixa]

In fact, the use of seer stones is ancient and a core component in the Hebrew belief system. But more importantly, I have seen one of them. I have held it and touched it.

B.S. He neither held nor touched one. It/they are locked deep within "Vault F" of the First Presidency's Vault, strictly off-limits to all.

I have read the report from the Princeton Museum of American History declaring it an “invaluable” piece of American History. I have also read the FOUR independent geological reports each stating that the stone was composed of an unknown element not found on this earth.

Again, B.S. There is no such geological report, much less FOUR of them.

From his description it sounds like the "Philo Dibble" stone which I believe is in private hands (it was sold/changed hands in the last couple of years, I'm not sure who has it now). I've never read of any geological provenance documentation being attached to it, though!

Also JonasS has the best summary:

his words are his own personal doctrine combined with his own understanding of church history and it is speaking crap basically

.

[_Inconceivable]

Well, if the Mormon is a friend I would have said, "Cool. Now that's behind us let's get together this weekend, bbq, and watch some UFC." Friendships are more important than religious persuasion. If your friend brings the topic up, just say you don't want to talk about it, maybe refer him to LDS.org and have him do a Joseph Smith geneology search. Then leave it be.

antishock,

This approach works for my well intentioned friend and this is pretty much how we ended our visit. We'll be friends forever. However, he didn't call my spouse poison and recommend divorce - or in my situation, call my TBM wife to recommend such lunacy. My friend respects sacred bounderies. This clown of Alandeb is an ass. He must have done a lot of brain cell destroying drugs when he was lost. His was an indecent proposal.

AlandDeb,

You might have your poison, er husband, do the inviting. Why watch UFC on the tube when you can sit ringside? If I were him, I would expect to get my butt kicked into oblivion. He owes you and your husband a heartfelt apology, at minimum, before you cut him loose. A homewrecker ought to be outed and be expected to take personal responsibility for his antifamily mormonspeak.

I'll say it again. What an ass (and this isn't an isolated incident).

[_Droopy]

I was excommunicated because of choices I made. Despite the things I knew to be true, I committed serious sins that resulted in my excommunication. I had serious problems with several people involved with the church as well as a processed I viewed to be inherently sexist. These experiences fueled anger against the church that enabled me, and even encouraged me, to reject the gospel for a time. It became increasingly easy to find fault with members and leaders of the church, and without a doubt, the more I looked for dirt on the church, the more I could find. I am well familiar with the majority of “alternative” Mormon sites, each promoting their own view of LDS beliefs. These sites further fueled my anger and mistrust, but as I did further research I realized that the majority of stuff I was reading was deceptive and fueled by the contributor’s own anger. I realized that I couldn’t trust anything I read on the web and was forced to turn to legitimate, primary resource research material to find answers.

This is going to create absolute hysteria on this board, especially within the minds of people like many of our illustrious secular apostates who are looking at this and seeing, lo and behold, themselves, in stark, naked honesty - a self honesty they have yet to allow themselves.

Hubris, ego, swelling intellectual vanity, pride. Frogs in wells strutting about pontificating about the heavens. All the enemies of the Gospel and of the things one knows to be true but which cramp one's style.

This is a breath of very fresh air.