MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

[_msharmony]

Smuggling in a sixshooter? Poor planning.

And anything larger would have been discovered and taken. Duh.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Smuggling in a sixshooter? Poor planning.

And anything larger would have been discovered and taken. Duh.

Where was his mighty militia? Duh.





...........................................................P W N E D !

[Guest]

To clarify, does Mr. Turley hold a masters or doctorate in history?

Not to my knowledge.

Thank you, Dr. Peterson; that's what I thought. However, couldn't you have saved us both (and the other readers in this thread) some time and effort if you'd just admitted this up front? As an aside, I personally consider forthrightness a virture.

I know that in March of 2003, Yale Divinity School held a conference on Joseph Smith [in which Church money forced Yale to reject Dr. Quinn's participation].

What a spectacular diversion, by the way!

Thank you.

But Yale’s prestige didn’t protect it when the LDS Church threatened to withhold BYUs funding of the conference if Dr. Quinn were to participate. Prestige notwithstanding, the Church’s dollars spoke and Yale caved in and Dr. Quinn, ironically a Yale graduate, was excluded from the conference.

To be more accurate, one of the conference co-sponsors, which is now known as the Maxwell Institute, did not support a proposal to have Mike Quinn present a paper at the conference.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Maxwell Institute funded at least partly with tithing? As you consider your answer, please consider that forthrightness is a virtue.

So I have to wonder how much of a parallel there is between Church dollars influencing the Yale conference and Church dollars influencing Oxford University Press.

It's one thing for one of the co-sponsors of a conference to exercise its legitimate right to influence the design of the conference, and quite another for a Church to bribe the most prestigious academic press in the English-speaking world into publishing a book that will bring shame and disrepute upon the press.

And then there's the fact that your wildly speculative conspiracy theory is accompanied by not a shred of supporting evidence. It springs from the clear blue sky.

I don't know, nor do I suggest that the Church paid Oxford to publish the book, but I did ask the question. And it didn't come out of the blue, it came out of the 2003 conference where Church dollars influenced Yale's decisions on participation in the conference, which you've just admitted actually happened and defended.

And, I think it's only a matter of time until the faith-promoting rumors start flying that Oxford's publishing of the book constitutes an endorsement by Oxford of the LDS Church's claims to be the only true Church on the face of the earth today. Moreover, knowing how LDS spinmeisters work, we'll also hear how one or more Oxford editors were converted to the LDS Church by the message in the book.

Besides the “thousands, if not millions of dollars” spent by the Church on research, I wonder how much the Church paid directly or indirectly to Oxford University Press for the publication of Massacre at Mountain Meadows.

Precisely none, would be my guess.

Possibly, but if the Church's money can bend Yale to its will, why not Oxford?

Incidentally, are you aware that one of your apologetic colleagues in another venue is suggesting that not only did the "threatening" Francher Party fully deserve what it got (contradicting Turley et al's book), but is claiming that the Cedar City militia had no choice but to destroy the wagon train because the Francher Party had threatened that its members would kill Cedar City settlers and take over their farms and ranches? Please remember that I have bet you a diet Coke that one or more of your apologetic colleagues at MADB would advocate the idea that the Francher Party had it coming and you assured me that no such allegations would be made. Don't worry, I'm not going to claim I just won so you owe me a diet Coke because technically, the "Francher Party had it coming" allegations were not directly made in MADB, but this comment was included along with a review of Turley's book which was URL'd in MADB.

James Clifford Miller

[_James Clifford Miller]

Jason,

Do you think the temple ceremony of the time including the, 'you know what' had anything to do with MMM?

~dancer~

I don't want to get the thread moved and am not sure if I can say exactly to what I refer. Do you know about what I am talking?

Certainly there were elements of the temple ceremony, particularly at that time, that could have contributed to what happened at MMM. And yes I know what you are talking about.

I'm curious if the book covers this to any extent.

Maybe James can give us the inside scoop here! ;-)

I don't think the book covered this.

James Clifford Miller

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Jason,

Do you think the temple ceremony of the time including the, 'you know what' had anything to do with MMM?

~dancer~

I don't want to get the thread moved and am not sure if I can say exactly to what I refer. Do you know about what I am talking?

Certainly there were elements of the temple ceremony, particularly at that time, that could have contributed to what happened at MMM. And yes I know what you are talking about.

I'm curious if the book covers this to any extent.

Maybe James can give us the inside scoop here! ;-)

I don't think the book covered this.

James Clifford Miller

Sure TD, an apologetic book written by employees of LDS Inc are going discuss the temple ceremony let alone discuss the possibilities of past-since-removed oaths aiding in planing the slaughter of children, women and completely unarmed men.

Was that the oath that was removed in 1927?

[_harmony]

What I want to know is... where did the millions that funded this project come from? Tithing?

Where is the documentation of the millions first?

Makes no difference to me if it's $10 or millions... where did it come from? Tithing?

Is anyone going to answer this question? Where did the money that funded this project come from?

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Is anyone going to answer this question? Where did the money that funded this project come from?

in my opinion, tithing is the root of all finances in LDS Inc.

Apologetically, we will be told that the money paid to these three employees and those who helped with it came from gains in investments, this money in particular came from money made from air time for TV commercials sold on KSL-TV.

[_beastie]

James -

Did the book address the subsequent cover-up of the massacre and the distribution of the party's material goods?

And what was the authors' explanation for BY's "vengeance is mine, saith the lord, and I have taken a little" along with the dismantling of the stone monument?

Thanks

[_beastie]

Here's a detailed review of the book at Common Consent:

http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/ ... n-meadows/


I found this reference interesting:

A couple of other important sources that I found novel to this volume were Extracts from Jacob Hamblin’s journal, in Jacob Hamblin to Brigham Young, November 13, 1871 in the Young Office Files as well as Jacob Hamblin statement, November 28, 1871, Young Office Files. Hamblin’s journal is available at the Utah State Archives, but it has two sections of pages ripped out. Presumably this communication includes at least some of those missing entries. [UPDATE June 13, 2008 - Brian Reeves at the LDS Church Archives has informed me that Donald R. Moorman with Gene A. Sessions, Camp Floyd and the Mormons: The Utah War (Salt Lake City: University of Utah Press, 1992), 137-8 (see also p. 304, notes 65-68) used the Hamblin letter and that, as per the preface of the volume, Moorman likely accessed the material in the 1960's. The documents were transfered to the Young Office Files in the late seventies or early eighties and were made publicly available in 2000.]

I think this is one of the primary problems in trying to fully unravel this mystery, in particular BY's involvement. If any documents ever existed that implicated BY in any way, they were destroyed long ago.

[_truth dancer]

Sure TD, an apologetic book written by employees of LDS Inc are going discuss the temple ceremony let alone discuss the possibilities of past-since-removed oaths aiding in planing the slaughter of children, women and completely unarmed men.

Was that the oath that was removed in 1927?

I'm not sure what the exact date the particular oath to which I refer was removed but it was most certainly alive and well during the MMM.

I assumed the temple ceremony along with its accompanying oath (performed and promised in the day) was not in the book for obvious reasons. If it wasn't, then the book in my opinion, does not present the full picture.

I think it is a crucial bit of information that helps others understand the mindset of the murderers.

True believers will do anything in the name of God. If they promise God they will do something, and believe they will receive exaltation (or heaven, or seventy virgins, or Godhood, or whatever), for doing so, their belief can justify all sorts of cruelty and horror. (I'm speaking of all True Believers not just those in the LDS church).

Promising God, covenanting with God, and performing ritual oaths; and believing one is required to behave in a certain way clearly makes certain behavior more likely.

in my opinion, without this mindset, (established in the temple) along with various covenants and beliefs, the MMM would not have occurred.

~dancer~