Hill Cumorah

[_antishock8]

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)


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"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Walmart. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)


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"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

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"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)


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"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)


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"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)


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"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)


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"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)


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"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)


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"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)


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"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor's Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)



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Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, also stated that Cumorah is in New York.


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"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)


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"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)


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"According to the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites--the Ramah of the Jaredites--must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. Around it early in the sixth century B.C., the Jaredites were destroyed. Here, also, a thousand years later, at the dose of the fourth century A. D., the Nephites met with practical annihilation in a battle which, whether judged by the importance of the changes it wrought in the affairs of one of the world's continents, or the number slain,a ranks as one of the world's great battles. In view of these Book of Mormon facts one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Here one has a right to expect the evidences of military fortifications; for, though a thousand years had elapsed between the destruction of the Nephites and the discovery of America by the Europeans, still some military monuments would doubtless survive that length of time." (B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.3, Ch.34, p.67)

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"One of the most noted places in ancient American history was the land in which was situated the hill known to the Jaredites as Ramah and to the Nephites as Cumorah. In its vicinity two great races were exterminated; for it was there that the last battles were fought in the history of both peoples. There also the sacred records of the Nephites found their final resting place." (Elder George Reynolds, The Story of the Book of Mormon, Ch.69, p.325)

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Then of course we have the infamous letter, to which the rebuttal doesn't exist:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150


October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks
Moore Ward
Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake
1000 Windemere
Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:

I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours,
(signed)
F. Michael Watson
Secretary to the First Presidency

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How many more examples of apostles or prophets giving the exact location does one need in order to establish the fact that this is Mormon doctrine received by prophecy? I don't understand how a faithful LDSer gets around that. ?

[_antishock8]

Heber C. Kimball said: (Journal of Discourses, 28 September, 1856)

"How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had, when they went into a cave in the hill Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? There were books piled up on tables, book upon book. Those records this people will yet have, if they accept of the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts, and keep the commandments."

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In a discourse delivered at the tabernacle in Ogden on 18 May 1873, Orson Pratt said: "Will these things be brought to light? Yes. The records, now slumbering in the hill Cumorah, will be brought forth by the power of God, to fulfill the words of our text, that 'the knowledge of God shall cover the earth, as the waters cover the great deep."

Edit: The point being is every reference to the hill Cumorah by, at least, earlier prophets and apostles was directed to the hill in NY. There is no doubt that men, blessed with prophetic insight, designated the hill Cumorah as the one designated the hill Cumorah by Joseph Smith. How does a faithful LDSer get around that??

[_beastie]

1 – Many prophets and apostles taught that the NY Hill Cumorah was the same Book of Mormon Cumorah where the final battle was held. Joseph Fielding Smith, in a published text called “Doctrines of Salvation” quite explicitly taught this while teaching that the two cumorah theory was false. They taught this while functioning in their calling, addressing the body of the church, speaking in the name of Jesus Christ.

2 – These same prophets and apostles most likely prayed for inspiration and guidance while formulating the talks. These same prophets and apostles most likely continued to pray for guidance and inspiration while delivering the talks.

3 – According to LDS theology, inspiration is a form of revelation.

4 – These talks contained important information about the setting of the Book of Mormon that is, according to apologists, factually wrong.

5 – The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS faith. Teaching incorrect ideas about its possible geographic setting is not a minor, irrelevant detail – it is a crucial issue that helps reinforce people’s belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

The conclusion seems obvious. The prophets and apostles taught the body of the church incorrect principles while functioning in their callings, having sought inspiration beforehand, speaking in the name of Jesus Christ.

[_truth dancer]

To boil it down...

The prophets, apostles, and leaders of the church have taught (in an official capacity as representatives of the LDS church) that the final battle was in NY, and the plates were buried in the same hill in which they were found by Joseph Smith.

If after praying and asking for inspiration and believing they were receiving revelation, these LDS leaders were wrong on this point what happened?

Did the HG purposely confuse them?

Did they not really get the revelation they believed they received?

Did they mistake the HG for some other influence?

Were they just lying or making stuff up?

I'm really curious about how apologists make sense of this.

For me the difficulty comes in when realizing one cannot trust LDS leaders who claim to be receiving revelation or inspiration, and two, if prophets and apostles and other leaders who claim to commune with the divine with special keys and powers can't get it right, and can't even tell if they are receiving truth or not, then how in the world can the average member know if they are actually receiving correct information or inspiration from the HG?

Further, if all these leaders claim to have received inspiration and revelation that confirm the one and only HC is in NY, I find it really strange that today's apologists can so easily discount these inspired teachings.

I understand WHY they are discounting the teachings but it seems strange that they would place their own earthly knowledge over the inspired "truth" taught by God's representatives on the earth.

I believe that in my life time the Book of Mormon will move into the realm of inspired myth, similarly to how many mainstream Christians view the Tower of Babel and the Noachian flood Stories.

~dancer~

[_antishock8]

I wonder if a thread like this is actually a victory for the Mormon apologist? The whole point, really, despite what the apologist will tell you is that there is NO archeological evidence of 2,230,000 warriors having died at the NY site, and thus moving the debate from that reality to one of geography shifts focus from an obvious anti-Mormon victory to a muddled, ambiguous notion with no resolution, ever, if they have their way.

The prophets and apostles HAVE to be wrong on the geography question because if they're right, then they're absolutely wrong and we can't have that now can we? I think that's how an LDSer gets around this issue in his mind. That's the only thing I can fathom at this point.

[_christopher]

The prophets and apostles HAVE to be wrong on the geography question because if they're right, then they're absolutely wrong and we can't have that now can we? I think that's how an LDSer gets around this issue in his mind. That's the only thing I can fathom at this point.

But you are not going to get them to admit being wrong no matter what. It will just be ignored.

Even if it doesn't matter, some will not admit to being wrong. Think to the issue of blacks and the priesthood. I still hear "that was just a policy, though wrong, and never doctrine", when we have an issued and signed first presidency statement stating specifically and using the exact words that it was not a policy, that it was a commandment and doctrine.

For some, the evidences do not matter, they just want to believe and so they do and look for any plausibility no matter how remote......."I'll take Central American mammals with a prehensile snout for $500 Alex."


Chris <><

[_Matt Amos]

I have a quick question. What is the explanation for how the NY hill became known as Cumorah, also? Was Joseph Smith, despite his personal tutoring from Moroni, the source of confusion? I believe I have read the suggestion that the Book of Mormon people's had two separate hills named Cumorah, just like we have cities named Decatur in Texas and Illinois; but that doesn't make sense in an LGT, since there would have been no Book of Mormon peoples in NY (other than Moroni after his multi-decade trek with the plates).

[_Dr. Shades]

Simple. They belong to a different religion. It's known as "Internet Mormonism."

Still peddling that silly caricature, Shades?

I wouldn't say "peddling." Nor would I say "silly." Nor would I say "caricature."

But, to anticipate your intent, I believe in it 100% with no qualifications whatsoever. The proof is in the pudding right here on this very thread: The prophets say one thing, you (and the rest of the apologsts) all but say that they were wrong. The same goes for a global flood, the identity of Zelph, etc.

[_truth dancer]

Where do you think the final battle with millions of people took place?

I find the arguments of David Palmer and John Sorenson and others persuasive that it was probably in the vicinity of Veracruz.

If Mesoamerica, how do you think the plates arrived in the NY HC?

Moroni evidently had roughly thirty-five years after the final Nephite battle in which to take the plates wherever he needed to take them. And, even if one discounts the idea of divine guidance, he had powerful incentive to head northward to escape from the Lamanites (who would have loved to capture both the plates and the son of the last Nephite miitary commander). In his book An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, John Sorenson briefly mentions the story of a shipwrecked early-seventeenth-century English sailor who, if I'm not mistaken, traveled alone from Guatemala to what is essentially upstate New York under conditions that probably weren't terribly different -- in terms of landscape, potentially hostile encounters, and the like -- from what Moroni would have faced in the early fifth century.

Thank you for answering.

There are several statements by those who claimed to actually see the content of the NY cave where the plates were hidden. If I recall correctly some said the records and various artifacts filled the room, and were more than ten men could carry or a six mule team could pull.

With these various accounts in mind, I'm wondering what you believe was actually in the cave and how Moroni got all the records and artifacts from Mesoamerica to NY.

Thanks for your thoughts,

~dancer~

[Guest]

There are several statements by those who claimed to actually see the content of the NY cave where the plates were hidden. If I recall correctly some said the records and various artifacts filled the room, and were more than ten men could carry or a six mule team could pull.

With these various accounts in mind, I'm wondering what you believe was actually in the cave and how Moroni got all the records and artifacts from Mesoamerica to NY.

Thanks for your thoughts,

~dancer~

I recently discovered plate near the Hill Cumorah will help shed some light on it.

Footprints in the Dirt,

by Moroni.

After my long journey from Guatemala to upstate New York, er, I mean, from the land Southward to the Northern Wilderness, I laid down to rest, for carrying this multitude of exceedingly heavy plates made me weary. I had a dream, or in other words, I had a vision. I was walking across the land with Jesus. We were carrying my multitude of exceedingly heavy plates. I noticed two sets of footprints in the dirt, one belonging to me and the other to the Lord.

As I looked at the footprints in the dirt, I noticed that many times along the journey there was only one set of footprints. I also noticed that this happened during the exceedingly hard times, when the plates were exceedingly heavy, and I had to carry them over mountains and rough terrain, and across rivers and such.

This really bothered me and I questioned Jesus about it. "Jesus?" I said, "You promised to help me carry these plates to the Northern Wilderness, but I have noticed that during the most difficult times, there was only one set of footprints. You made me do all the hard work all by myself."

Jesus replied, "My precious, precious Moroni, I love you and I would never leave you! During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you and the plates."

So, as you can see, although there were so many plates that ten normal men couldn't carry them, with the help of Jesus, anything is possible.