Hill Cumorah

[Guest]

So the bottom line is Jabba the Hutt here doesn't believe his prophets and apostles because there's no reason to believe them, ie, when there's no evidence to back up their claims. Instead, he believes that they're only inspired enough to pass along "principles", but as far as specific prophesies go... Phew... It's a crapshoot. Only a First Presidency prophecy that is voted on and published can be considered doctrine. *rolling eyes*

I mean, we really need "inspired prophets" to tell it's not a good thing to kill each other. Or to be good family men. Or not to steal. Or... You know... Don't overeat. Hrm. Maybe we DO need prophets now that I think about it. America is in the middle of an obseity epidemic.

Anyway, so this particular Mormon eschews the geographical location, as put forth by various Mormon apostles and prophets because there's no archaeological evidence, so instead he buys off on the notion that there's another hill Cumorah that will, conveniently enough, never be found. Voila. Apologetics.

edit: This seems to be a theme with this crowd, by the way. Missing letters. Missing scrolls. Missing hills. Missing archaeology. I suppose Moroni could have mislaid some of his loot?

[_antishock8]

I don't find it at all ridiculous to imagine that Moroni could have walked two or three thousand miles from Mesoamerica to what is now upstate New York over the course of roughly thirty-five years. As I mentioned yesterday, John Sorenson mentions the case of a shipwrecked English sailor who evidently did precisely that in the early seventeenth century.

It is possible, I agree. Apologists are only, just barely, fenced in by what can be argued as possible. Probability and parsimony and ad hoc hypothesis do not usually trouble them, yet violation of these considerations is reason the rest of us roll our eyes and call it ridiculous.

What made Moroni walk 3,000 miles over 35 years just to bury his load of treasure?

I'm having an Occam's Razor moment here...

[_Matt Amos]

The vision of the cave of records was . . . a vision.

Dr. Peterson, from what part of Brigham Young's account can we determine that it was a vision, as opposed to Joseph physically walking the plates back to the hill Cumorah?

[_beastie]

truth dancer wrote:
Maybe leaders don't pray at all. Maybe they don't ask for inspiration. Maybe they don't even think they are conversing with the Divine. Maybe they know they are just sharing their opinion or making stuff up or repeating past assumptions but pretend they are speaking for Christ.

Hmmmm.... I'll have to think about this.


You're absolutely free to think about anything you wish. But don't pretend that that's my position.

So what is your position? Did they pray beforehand? Did God only inspire them in certain portions of their talk and not others? Did the leaders know they weren't inspired in some portions of their talk? If leaders can't figure it out, why do you think you can?

[_Tarski]

What made Moroni walk 3,000 miles over 35 years just to bury his load of treasure?

Too easy. He was inspired to do so. The answer is that this was where the only soul mighty enough to be the prophet of the restoration was to be born.

If he had been born nearer to the Yucatan, he might not have even been a U.S. citizen! *wink*

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Also, where do you get the 35 years figure? I'll admit I haven't read up on this and I don't have a Book of Mormon handy.

Each page in the Book of Mormon has the year it took place at the bottom. The page that has the final battle and the page that has Moroni burying the plates have different dates at the bottom. I can't remember if the text itself mentions 35 years, and I'm not sure how canonical the dates at the bottom of the pages are.

[_The Dude]

What made Moroni walk 3,000 miles over 35 years just to bury his load of treasure?

Too easy. He was inspired to do so. The answer is that this was where the only soul mighty enough to be the prophet of the restoration was to be born.

If he had been born nearer to the Yucatan, he might not have even been a U.S. citizen! *wink*

Okay, given that the prophet of the restoration had to be a US citizen (*wink wink*) but Moroni had to start out 3,000 miles away in Mesoamerica, wouldn't it have been easiest for Joseph to just have a vision of the contents of the plates???

Daniel said "A vision can presumably show the visionary things close at hand or far away." God could have invoked this simple principle having the plates sunk at the bottom of a Mayan well where no evil doers would ever get at them.

[_Tarski]

What made Moroni walk 3,000 miles over 35 years just to bury his load of treasure?

Too easy. He was inspired to do so. The answer is that this was where the only soul mighty enough to be the prophet of the restoration was to be born.

If he had been born nearer to the Yucatan, he might not have even been a U.S. citizen! *wink*

Okay, given that the prophet of the restoration had to be a US citizen (*wink wink*) but Moroni had to start out 3,000 miles away in Mesoamerica, wouldn't it have been easiest for Joseph to just have a vision of the contents of the plates???

LOL
Religious myth is full of this kind of thing. For example, why didn't God simply fill all the wicked people's lungs with water and drown them rather than go through the whole flood thing with all of the problems it causes that each individually require miracles far greater than the one I suggest?

[_antishock8]

What made Moroni walk 3,000 miles over 35 years just to bury his load of treasure?

Too easy. He was inspired to do so. The answer is that this was where the only soul mighty enough to be the prophet of the restoration was to be born.

If he had been born nearer to the Yucatan, he might not have even been a U.S. citizen! *wink*

Okay, given that the prophet of the restoration had to be a US citizen (*wink wink*) but Moroni had to start out 3,000 miles away in Mesoamerica, wouldn't it have been easiest for Joseph to just have a vision of the contents of the plates???

Daniel said "A vision can presumably show the visionary things close at hand or far away." God could have invoked this simple principle having the plates sunk at the bottom of a Mayan well where no evil doers would ever get at them.

*cough* Seer stone. *cough* SEER. STONE. *cough* Face-in-the-hat translation. Plates not in room. *cough cough*

Sigh... I really am STILL interested in knowing how faithful members get around this mental conundrum. At least Mr. Peterson gave his opinion on the matter, and that's appreciated.

[_beastie]

All I can say is a bunch of y'all are going to hell.

Remember, the things of God are foolishness to man.