Losing your "rights" as a parent.

[_Mad Viking]

Giving a 4 or 5 year old a choice on religious belief is unfair to a child. They aren't ready to make any sort of choice like that.

I agree whole heartedly. I would submit that a child is not ready to make religious choices at 8 y.o. either.

It's even worse if the choice is to be loyal to mom or to be loyal to dad. No child should have to make that decision.

Again, I think we agree. Any parent who puts their child in a position to make religious choice out of loyalty is not being fair to the child. Children are simply not experienced enough and don't have the cognitive capacity to make religious decisions. Hence, in my opinion, they should not be asked to by either parent.

It also weakens the authority of parents which should come down as a united front. If the child is able to find a wedge to use against them (whether they mean to or not) bad things always follow and the family can be fragmented.

I hate to say it, but I think I agree again. That is why I don't think religious decisions should be put to children. They are not old enough to make informed decisions about religion. Such matter should be put off until they are old enough.

[_Moniker]

Giving a 4 or 5 year old a choice on religious belief is unfair to a child. They aren't ready to make any sort of choice like that. It's even worse if the choice is to be loyal to mom or to be loyal to dad. No child should have to make that decision. It also weakens the authority of parents which should come down as a united front. If the child is able to find a wedge to use against them (whether they mean to or not) bad things always follow and the family can be fragmented.

Wow, Nehor, I can't believe I agree with almost everything you state! I think pitting children against one parent or the other is emotional abuse (Parental Alienation Syndrome can develop) and this happens, at times, when it comes to religion (and other things where parents can't act like grownups).

[_Inconceivable]

First of all, Nehor, what's the matter with you? I just agreed with you too.

Another problem to factor in is that the child will be told by many of the leaders that their non-believing parent is broken and needs to be fixed.

One of my sons has been developing a very condescending and contemptable attitude toward me. Though my character, morals and ideals have not changed I have rejected the "truth". I may have sinned against the Holy Ghost for rejecting something I must have known beyond a "shadow of a doubt". That potentially puts me in outer darkness where I won't be visited at all. I may not even be resurrected.

All or nothing? I may not just be broken, some might think me beyond redemption.

This make parenting just that much more difficult.

[_solomarineris]

Giving a 4 or 5 year old a choice on religious belief is unfair to a child. They aren't ready to make any sort of choice like that. It's even worse if the choice is to be loyal to mom or to be loyal to dad. No child should have to make that decision. It also weakens the authority of parents which should come down as a united front. If the child is able to find a wedge to use against them (whether they mean to or not) bad things always follow and the family can be fragmented.

Wow, Nehor, I can't believe I agree with almost everything you state! I think pitting children against one parent or the other is emotional abuse (Parental Alienation Syndrome can develop) and this happens, at times, when it comes to religion (and other things where parents can't act like grownups).

Well,
I for one will not abide by those rules!
Let me elaborate; The kids that live in my house is being raised by a tyrant, patriarchal type, who has absolutely no scruples blackmailing his grown-up children unless they submit to his direction.
The small kids are not small anymore 12-15. The big ones figured him out.
I will not hesitate to tall them the age of universe, not 6thousand years old, it is 15Billion years, give/take couple billion. I will not hesitate to tear down any rubbish they believe.
It is rubbish to believe in Genesis crock, or New testament demon healing tricks.
If I were parent again, there's no way in hell I'd feed this God/Jesus garbage to my kids, where they have no opportunity to falsify or probe what I am saying is true.
What kind of an "Major Idiot" I must be to teach my kids something that I've never seen a proof of it. Not a shred of it!

[_Jersey Girl]

Well,
I for one will not abide by those rules!
Let me elaborate; The kids that live in my house is being raised by a tyrant, patriarchal type, who has absolutely no scruples blackmailing his grown-up children unless they submit to his direction.
The small kids are not small anymore 12-15. The big ones figured him out.
I will not hesitate to tall them the age of universe, not 6thousand years old, it is 15Billion years, give/take couple billion. I will not hesitate to tear down any rubbish they believe.
It is rubbish to believe in Genesis crock, or New testament demon healing tricks.
If I were parent again, there's no way in hell I'd feed this God/Jesus garbage to my kids, where they have no opportunity to falsify or probe what I am saying is true.
What kind of an "Major Idiot" I must be to teach my kids something that I've never seen a proof of it. Not a shred of it!

This is what I don't get. I see it over and over again and it still leads me to conclude that LDS aren't taught or encouraged to do any in depth study of scripture and when they leave (not all of course) the church, they carry their misconceptions with them.

The Bible in it's totality is NOT to be taken literally from Genesis to Revelation. The Revelation alone is proof of that. So are the Psalms, the Proverbs, parables and such as that. And yet it seems that LDS make no distinction between the literary styles contained in the Bible nor do they engage in any cultural studies whatsoever. Do they? If so, I don't see it.

When you take that black and white view of the Bible (entirely literal or entirely not literal) you allow yourself to remain ignorant. What other body of work do people treat in that fashion? It's as if the rational thought people are attempting to develop goes straight out the window when it comes to the Old Testament and New Testament.

Are you (ex Mo's generally speaking) completely unable to view the Bible outside of Mormonism?

Here, solo gives his children two choices. View them as literal or entirely in error.

There IS another choice. They are ancient myth.

[_Moniker]

Wow, Nehor, I can't believe I agree with almost everything you state! I think pitting children against one parent or the other is emotional abuse (Parental Alienation Syndrome can develop) and this happens, at times, when it comes to religion (and other things where parents can't act like grownups).

Well,
I for one will not abide by those rules![/quote[

What rules?

Let me elaborate; The kids that live in my house is being raised by a tyrant, patriarchal type, who has absolutely no scruples blackmailing his grown-up children unless they submit to his direction.
The small kids are not small anymore 12-15. The big ones figured him out.
I will not hesitate to tall them the age of universe, not 6thousand years old, it is 15Billion years, give/take couple billion. I will not hesitate to tear down any rubbish they believe.

You're not the parent? Who lives in your home? I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

It is rubbish to believe in Genesis crock, or New testament demon healing tricks.
If I were parent again, there's no way in hell I'd feed this God/Jesus garbage to my kids, where they have no opportunity to falsify or probe what I am saying is true.
What kind of an "Major Idiot" I must be to teach my kids something that I've never seen a proof of it. Not a shred of it!

I think not teaching kids something is one thing. Teaching kids your own beliefs is something. Teaching kids to choose between parents or tearing the other parent down is EMOTIONAL ABUSE and is damaging to children.

Parental Alienation Syndrome: http://www.paskids.com/

There are ways to co-parent with tact. Adults need to act like adults and come to an understanding of what the children will be taught. Not one parent vs. the other parent or their belief systems.

[_MsJack]

If during the course of a marriage, one of the spouses changes their religious position, does that parent forfeit their right to discuss religious matters with their children due to the fact that they are not following through with the original plan (even if unspoken) to raise the children in a specific religion?

I say that if the kids are 50% biologically yours, or if you have a joint adoption agreement of any sort, then you have the right to insist that your religious views be taught to the children, regardless of how they change as your marriage progresses or what you agreed on when you got married. It's one of the reasons I think every couple should learn a little bit about how interfaith marriages work, even if you think your spouse will always be faithful to your religion and will never depart from it. If your spouse does leave the religion and wants the kids to learn about their new views, how are you going to handle the children? Will your marriage end because your spouse's faith did?

However, if you get married to someone who already has kids from a prior marriage, it's their kids, their religion. I don't think the step-parent has the right to teach his/her religion to kids who are not his/hers.

Does having two parents with very divergent views on religion, discussing their respective views in a resepectful manner with regard to the other spouse, cause the children undue confusion?

It depends on how the parents handle it. If they show love and respect and some level of participation in each other's views, then it works just fine. If they bicker about it and go behind each other's backs trying to win the kids over, then it doesn't.

It's a bit similar to how a divorce can be amiable if the parents work together or a divorce can be a living nightmare on the children if they fight each other. But the fact is, kids have the potential to live with it and thrive if the parents handle it right.

These might be of interest:

A not-very-good paper I wrote on LDS interfaith marriages. Sorry, I haven't coded the endnote tags yet.

My Mormon-Evangelical interfaith marriage story. See Part 3 for some links to other Mormon interfaith marriage stories.

[_harmony]

First of all, Nehor, what's the matter with you? I just agreed with you too.

Another problem to factor in is that the child will be told by many of the leaders that their non-believing parent is broken and needs to be fixed.

One of my sons has been developing a very condescending and contemptable attitude toward me. Though my character, morals and ideals have not changed I have rejected the "truth". I may have sinned against the Holy Ghost for rejecting something I must have known beyond a "shadow of a doubt". That potentially puts me in outer darkness where I won't be visited at all. I may not even be resurrected.

All or nothing? I may not just be broken, some might think me beyond redemption.

This make parenting just that much more difficult.

I know you didn't ask, but still... this kind of interference just gripes me no end.

This is unacceptable and a classic example of unrighteous dominion. Complain, loudly, to this person's leader (if YM's, then the bishop; if the bishop, then the SP). This kind of interference into a family dynamic by a ward leader is simply inexcusable. Do not waste any more time; do it today.

Now to repair the damage, I'd suggest a discussion with your wife, regarding your concerns about the damage to the father/son relationship by her leaders. If she gave them permission, you've got an even bigger problem, but a timely reminder of the fallibility of prophets would not be amiss here. If she didn't give them permission, life will get easier if you confront said leaders as a team. Then... both of you sit down with your son (God help you, if he's a young teenager. They're impossible, even under the best of circumstances) and have an open and frank discussion about respect, love of family, and what the church really teaches about respect, tolerance, and the fallibility of prophets. And establish an open channel of communication, where everytime he returns home from a church activity, you offer time to discuss whatever was discussed at the activity. If he's being told you are evil/deluded/stupid/unfaithful/etc, then you have the opportunity to combat that... and to once again go to battle for your son's soul.

I've backed down more than a few bishops who thought they could interfere with how I raised my kids. You can too.

[_The Nehor]

First of all, Nehor, what's the matter with you? I just agreed with you too.

Another problem to factor in is that the child will be told by many of the leaders that their non-believing parent is broken and needs to be fixed.

One of my sons has been developing a very condescending and contemptable attitude toward me. Though my character, morals and ideals have not changed I have rejected the "truth". I may have sinned against the Holy Ghost for rejecting something I must have known beyond a "shadow of a doubt". That potentially puts me in outer darkness where I won't be visited at all. I may not even be resurrected.

All or nothing? I may not just be broken, some might think me beyond redemption.

This make parenting just that much more difficult.

I know you didn't ask, but still... this kind of interference just gripes me no end.

This is unacceptable and a classic example of unrighteous dominion. Complain, loudly, to this person's leader (if YM's, then the bishop; if the bishop, then the SP). This kind of interference into a family dynamic by a ward leader is simply inexcusable. Do not waste any more time; do it today.

Now to repair the damage, I'd suggest a discussion with your wife, regarding your concerns about the damage to the father/son relationship by her leaders. If she gave them permission, you've got an even bigger problem, but a timely reminder of the fallibility of prophets would not be amiss here. If she didn't give them permission, life will get easier if you confront said leaders as a team. Then... both of you sit down with your son (God help you, if he's a young teenager. They're impossible, even under the best of circumstances) and have an open and frank discussion about respect, love of family, and what the church really teaches about respect, tolerance, and the fallibility of prophets. And establish an open channel of communication, where everytime he returns home from a church activity, you offer time to discuss whatever was discussed at the activity. If he's being told you are evil/deluded/stupid/unfaithful/etc, then you have the opportunity to combat that... and to once again go to battle for your son's soul.

I've backed down more than a few bishops who thought they could interfere with how I raised my kids. You can too.

How is this the leader's fault? Do you seriously think that his leaders are telling him to hold his father in contempt?

[_Inconceivable]

How is this the leader's fault? Do you seriously think that his leaders are telling him to hold his father in contempt?

Good question, Nehor.

Thanks Harmony,

Problem is that Mormons are raised to believe the arrogance that the outside world is broken and needs a physician (enter the mote/beam parable).

A leader does not have to come out and verballize their opinion of an apostate family member (boyfriend, relative, teacher). All they need to do is ask a few leading questions. You know how that works. Who could be held to accountability by reading a scripture or two?:

14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 23:14)

You have some great ideas, but the reality is that my wife is still a Mormon. She is halt somewhere between two opinions. This makes our relationship quite a bit more fragile than it used to be. Keep in mind, fragile doesn't indicate a diminished value. On the contrary, I would yet rather consider ours priceless.

Words spoken by Mormon leaders to my wife or children that diminish my ability to be an effective/respected parent and spouse will and should always have the effect of wacking a hornet's nest.