I miss

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_Moniker
_Emeritus
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I miss

Post by _Moniker »

Tal Bachman and his anti everything threads!

So, in his honor I submit: http://richarddawkins.net/article,450,T ... bst-ihtcom

The problem with secularism
by Phillip Blond and Adrian Pabst, iht.com
Thanks to George Hyde for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/21/ ... dblond.php

LONDON: Geopolitically, the resurgence of religion is dangerous and spreading. From Islamic fundamentalism, American evangelism to Hindu nationalism, each creed demands total conformity and absolute submission to their own particular variant of God's revelation.

Common to virtually all versions of contemporary religious fanaticism is a claim to know divine intention directly, absolutely and unquestionably. As a result, many people demand a fresh liberal resistance to religious totalitarianism.

But it is important to realize that this reduction of a transcendent religion to confirmation of one's own personal beliefs represents an ersatz copy of liberal humanism. Long before religious fundamentalism, secular humanists reduced all objective codes to subjective assertion by making man the measure of all things and erasing God from nature.

This was a profoundly secular move: It simply denied natural knowledge of God and thereby eliminated theology from the sciences. Religion, stripped of rationality, became associated with a blind unmediated faith — precisely the mark of fanaticism. Thus religious fundamentalism constitutes an absence of religion that only true religion can correct.

Although the cultured despisers of religion are once again making strident appeal to secular values and unmediated reason, they do not realize that the religious absolutism they denounce is but a variant of their own fundamentalism returned in a different guise.

Richard Dawkins's barely literate polemic "The God Delusion" declares that religion is irrational without ever explaining the foundations of reason itself. Sam Harris's diatribe "The End of Faith" has to falsify history by claiming that Hitler and Stalin were religious in order to make its case for the malign influence of faith. The attacks on religion are becoming ever more shrill and desperate — a clear sign of atheist anxiety about the status of their own first principles and explanatory frameworks.

This atheist apprehension is well founded, as the latest developments in biology, physics and philosophy all open the door to a revivified theology and a religious metaphysics.

Darwinism is close to being completely rewritten. Hitherto, it had been assumed that forms of life are the product of essentially arbitrary processes, such that (as Stephen Jay Gould put it) if we ran evolution again life would look very different. However, evolution shows biological convergence. As Simon Conway Morris, a professor of biology at Cambridge University, has argued, evolution is not arbitrary: If it ran again, the world would look much as it already does.

Nor is natural selection now thought to be the main driver of biological change. Rather, life displays certain inherency, such that the beings that come about are a product of their own integral insistence. All of which means that there is no necessary conflict between evolution and theology. Indeed, evolution is no more arbitrary than God is deterministic. Similarly, in cosmology and physics the idea that the world was produced by chance has long been dismissed. The extreme precision of the gravitational constant that allows a universe like ours to exist requires an explanation. Rather than envisioning the world as an intended creation, secular physics posits infinite numbers of multiverses existing alongside our own. Thus, the sheer uniqueness of our universe is qualified by the existence of all other possible universes.

The trouble is that this supposition sounds more bizarre than religion. Moreover, to posit this paradigm leads to the Matrix hypothesis that we are actually only a virtual simulation run by other universes more powerful and real. So religion finds itself in the strange position of defending the real world against those who would make us merely virtual phenomena.

Philosophically, if one wants to defend the idea of objective moral truths, it appears ineluctably to require some sort of engagement with theology. For if there are universals out there, we need to explain why they care about us or indeed how we can know them at all. And if human beings do not make these truths, then it seems an account of the relationship between ultimate truths and human life can only be religious.

Thus we are witnessing a real intellectual return to religion that cannot be reduced to the spread of fanaticism. It is also becoming clear that secularism reinforces rather than overcomes both religious fundamentalism and militant atheism.

In the new, post-secular world, religion cannot be eliminated and, properly figured, is in fact our best hope for a genuine alternative to the prevailing extremes.
_Gadianton
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Re: I miss

Post by _Gadianton »

Richard dawkins does not need to derive the foundations of reason in order to claim religion is unreasonable. This is the "oh, it appears you have the evidence on your side, but what is evidence anyway?" Response. Anyone can turn any argument into a infinite regress and think they are being perceptive.

Christians, such as him, also hold the same regard for "reason" given that they believe biology and cosmology are leaning toward their vindictive god.

This being one of many physically possible worlds is one interpretation of qm. And, the theology he'd like to see return is commited to infinite "possibilities", hence the ont. Argument. But that's not as weird?

Dawkins isn't a strong philosopher, and isn't the only atheists. For the most part he's right. There's just some deep dark corners better left to others, but the typical "american atheist" is 90 percent of the way there.

Phil mind covers a lot of territory in the weird stuff which is why I like it probably, and let me just be clear that what I mean by weird is that it takes discussions seriously that would piss dawkins off, he'd have no tolerance for it.

Things like modal logic and hair-splitting discussions that aren't evidence based are not unknown to atheists.

In fact, I'd wager most tody are atheists, or at least they don't have importan't "god-specific" contributions. It's not like in descartes or Leibniz's day where god can be swept in as an important part of the framework.

Traditional metaphysical notions are alive and well, and primarily contributed to by atheists, if this is what the author is looking for. What ground-breaking work in phil mind comes from a theistic outlook? Where has theism helped us understand the problem better?

So at most I can agree that dawkins probably in the end is too anti-philosophy because it's just not his thing. But the really interesting contributions to phil. Problems in the last 100 years either come from atheists, or at least have no clear ties to theism, do not imply it nor aided in illumination by it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: I miss

Post by _EAllusion »

He's saying that atheists are getting shrill in the face of new developments in knowledge that provide a persuasive case for religion. Those new developments happen to be old design and moral arguments respectively. None of them are taken seriously in their native fields. And they all are awful to varying degrees. (I see he tried the classic gambit of arguing that to reject the force of the fine-tuning argument, physicists have posited multiverses. Awesome stuff here.) I guess I'd point out that people like Dawkins are either dismissive of those arguments or think they are terrible to the extent they listen to them, so it doesn't make much sense to explain their behavior in terms of discomfort with their cogency.
_Ray A

Re: I miss

Post by _Ray A »

Moniker wrote:Tal Bachman and his anti everything threads!


One alternative: http://www.tbachman.blogspot.com/
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Re: I miss

Post by _Moniker »

Gadianton wrote:Richard dawkins does not need to derive the foundations of reason in order to claim religion is unreasonable. This is the "oh, it appears you have the evidence on your side, but what is evidence anyway?" Response. Anyone can turn any argument into a infinite regress and think they are being perceptive.

Christians, such as him, also hold the same regard for "reason" given that they believe biology and cosmology are leaning toward their vindictive god.


Yah, I saw this:
This atheist apprehension is well founded, as the latest developments in biology, physics and philosophy all open the door to a revivified theology and a religious metaphysics.


The latest in biology, physics, and philosophy? Really?

Traditional metaphysical notions are alive and well, and primarily contributed to by atheists, if this is what the author is looking for. What ground-breaking work in phil mind comes from a theistic outlook? Where has theism helped us understand the problem better?

So at most I can agree that dawkins probably in the end is too anti-philosophy because it's just not his thing. But the really interesting contributions to phil. Problems in the last 100 years either come from atheists, or at least have no clear ties to theism, do not imply it nor aided in illumination by it.


Well, other than throwing this out here for being anti-atheism as well as anti-secular humanism, and anti-Dawkins (all in one!) I, too, was struck by the comments about philosophy and theism.

The rest of your post went over my head tonight. I need to be asleep. I also have a horrid headache!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: I miss

Post by _Gadianton »

I didn't go over your head, it just wasn't very well put together. Bar+Beer+Blackberry = that post. lol.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Re: I miss

Post by _Moniker »

Gadianton wrote:I didn't go over your head, it just wasn't very well put together. Bar+Beer+Blackberry = that post. lol.


Maybe not? I don't know. I'm squinting at my screen and having some difficulty focusing. I just took some pain pills. I'll try again in the morning. :)
_EAllusion
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: I miss

Post by _EAllusion »

I read Gad's post and thought he must've been drunk out of his mind. The Blackberry helps add a layer of excuse. :p
_Bond...James Bond
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Re: I miss

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

EAllusion wrote:I read Gad's post and thought he must've been drunk out of his mind.


I wish I had that excuse to go on. Sadly all I have to work with is "I'm clueless, but people like me so....be nice!" [We play the cards we're dealt]
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Moniker
_Emeritus
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:53 pm

Re: I miss

Post by _Moniker »

EAllusion wrote:I read Gad's post and thought he must've been drunk out of his mind. The Blackberry helps add a layer of excuse. :p


Oh, well, then I won't even bother making sense of it. :)
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