The movie Fitna

[_Trevor]

For those of you who are interested in the fear that is understandably gripping some Europeans in the face of a swiftly growing Muslim population in their countries, see this film. It got to me.

[_truth dancer]

Reminds me of how Moses and Joshua slaughtered the Canaanites... children, babies, elderly, everyone save the virgin girls.

All in the name of God. Very disturbing.

:-(

td

[_Trevor]

Reminds me of how Moses and Joshua slaughtered the Canaanites... children, babies, elderly, everyone save the virgin girls.

Disturbing indeed!

[_bcspace]

According to the "opposition in all things principle", I believe the Muslims and other immigrants comming into Europe may very well be what wakes the Europeans up to religion and God once more.

[_Sethbag]

According to the "opposition in all things principle", I believe the Muslims and other immigrants comming into Europe may very well be what wakes the Europeans up to religion and God once more.

And I believe those influences will remind the Europeans just how stupid religion and belief in this non-existent God are, and if it wakes them up to anything, it'll be the danger of magical thinking, abandonment of critical thinking, and superstition.

[_truth dancer]

According to the "opposition in all things principle", I believe the Muslims and other immigrants comming into Europe may very well be what wakes the Europeans up to religion and God once more.

The days of, "my god is stronger than your god" need to go the way of the dinosaur.

Seriously...

What makes Moses and Joshua any better than those modern day people who believe non-believers need to be slaughter, or infidels wiped off the face of the earth?

I'm with Sethbag on this... I think the fanatical Muslims remind us of the dangers of religion. Decent people start looking at why and how people can believe such nonsense and realize that it is a human condition for people to believe what they are taught/conditioned to believe, and what they think they must not stop believing. Fear is a powerful motivator.

Doesn't seem to matter how weird, ridiculous, or cruel is the teaching... people can believe it if there is enough fear attached to not believing, and if they are brainwashed or conditioned to believe it.

I think there are lots of people waking up, learning how our brains work, rethinking what they believe.

td

[_dartagnan]

And I believe those influences will remind the Europeans just how stupid religion and belief in this non-existent God are, and if it wakes them up to anything, it'll be the danger of magical thinking, abandonment of critical thinking, and superstition.

This is the one thing that irks me about the anti-religion fanatics. They can't seem to separate much of anything. Wild Muslims only tell us about their Muslim faith; it says nothing about religion in general.

What makes Moses and Joshua any better than those modern day people who believe non-believers need to be slaughter, or infidels wiped off the face of the earth?

There is no evidence that Moses and Joshua did any of these things. It is probably just fable. Secondly, there is no evidence that modern Jews use these passages to justify similar acts of atrocity. Muslims use the example of Muhammad in their various terroristic battles. And for good reason; Muhammed was a terrorist. Christians never killed non-Christians simply because they were non-Christian, and neither do Jews. The fact that you guys have to generalize the worst in religion (Islam) with the rest of the lot, only tells me you have an anti-religion agenda and really aren't all that interested in the historical facts.
Zeitgeist anyone?

I'm with Sethbag on this... I think the fanatical Muslims remind us of the dangers of religion.

And as I have corrected over and over again, generalization will get you nowhere. Religion is just one of many social schemes. It is one of many possible sources of passion and commitment that could lead to violence. It can be used for good or bad, depending on the person and the agenda. At its core it is no different from passionate soccer fans who are willing to kill each other in the streets of England, or the passionate politicians who are willing to do likewise in just about every form of government there is. So why don't you stop being hypocrites and just claim to be anarchists too.

Did you know that most suicide bombers are not religious at all? How does that compute into your anti-religion philosophy?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Kevin,

I am not anti-religion at all.

I do however believe most religion needs some, um, updating. (smile)

I think many religions have in its teachings some horrific beliefs and ideas and so long as they are taught and embraced they influence humankind.

There are great Muslims, great Christians, great Scientologists, great Mormons... I don't think anyone is saying all religion is hurtful. At least I don't think so.

In fact if I could find a religion that made sense and felt holy and healthy I would join up in a heart beat. :-)

I think religion is a way various "tribes" have formed over the years. Obviously they have served a purpose in human development.

My problem is with teachings in religions (or anywhere else) that create or cause harm, perpetuate cruelty, and promote a dangerous and unhealthy world.

I know we disagree on this but in my opinion, so long as Christians are embracing the Old Testament, (whether the events actually happened or not), they can't complain about others who slaughter and destroy whole communities in the name of God.

td

[_dartagnan]

I don't think anyone is saying all religion is hurtful.

Are you serious? You should pay closer attention to what's been said here, even on a regular basis. Sethbag made it perfectly clear he thinks all religion is stupid. You said you were "with" him. Don't be surprised if anyone thinks you're anti-religion.

I know we disagree on this but in my opinion, so long as Christians are embracing the Old Testament, (whether the events actually happened or not), they can't complain about others who slaughter and destroy whole communities in the name of God.

This is where I find duplicity among the atheist critics. They know the Old Testament is mostly ahistorical, but they refer to it as history to the extent that it serves their purposes. In this case, you need to equate all religion, so you have to use the Old Testament to run parallel with modern Islamic atrocities. But as I said, there is no evidence that much of the Old Testament violence ever took place. So why are you pretending that it did when you know very well you don't really believe it? Many of these Old Testament wars are in the context of various gods fighting one another - something you don't believe ever took place. Is the Old Testament history or isn't it? If not, then stop using it to club Christians and Jews, especially when there isn't the slightest hint that either group interprets these passages as you would have them.

There is a clear distinction between Christian/Islamic scripture, what they entail and how adherents from each faith use them.

These things you refer to in the Old Testament appear to be later embellishments on the past, designed for political purposes alone.

[_truth dancer]

OK, maybe there are those who are anti every religion in the world. :-) You are right. I'm one of those who Sam Harris gets after... (smile)

I'm not anti-religion.. but wish some religions would let go of the harmful and dangerous teachings and doctrine. I think it is time humankind rethink some of the old stories that are inappropriate for our time.

OK... to the point of the thread:

Whether the Old Testament is true or not is irrelevant to the problem or the discussion Kevin.

My observation is there are many many believers in the Old Testament. They believe it is true, the word of God, and a literal history. Do you disagree with this? Do you really think all believers in the Bible think it is just myth or fabrication or something?

It doesn't matter what you or I think about it. Many believers in the Old Testament, actually believe it.

The point is, the story is about God directing men to slaughter non-believers.

Just as some believers in Islam also think it is God's will to kill infidels.

The teaching is there. God loves his chosen group, the others must die.

I'm not suggesting all Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe this or want all non-believers to die. I'm saying that the teaching is there in scriptures, held as sacred and holy.

I don't see how any believer in the Old Testament can complain about others who do exactly what is taught in their scripture, the only difference is their particular God.

A few months ago I had a discussion with a LDS believer (who actually believes the Old Testament), about this very topic... I asked him what the difference was between the Old Testament slaughtering of the Canaanites and the Islam believers who flew planes into the Twin Towers. His reply was... "testimony."

As a believer, I was taught many times that God wanted Moses to kill the Canaanite babies and children because they had no chance to grow up righteously.. sort of a mercy killing thing. The point being, in every lesson I had over the years regarding the Old Testament, the teaching was that the story was true and it was God's will to have Moses slaughter families (with the exception of virgin girls)... even animals.

I doubt I am the only one who was taught this in the LDS church.

:-(

td

A little off topic, did you see the CNN special, God's Warriors? If so what did you think?