Episode 7: As the "L-Skinny" Turns

[_Gadianton]

I don't think it's a good argument to say that this young lady who was harrassed by a coordinated effort from behind the scenes of skinny-l deserved it because she wasn't even funny. If she was as bad as everyone is claiming, then clearly she had some serious emotional issues and it makes it that much more difficult to understand how a group of grown men with Phds who have made covenants in the temple to serve Christ would get off on a email attack against an unstable and immature young lady. Then again, Pyle is an avowed mason of the same right as Aliester Crowley, perhaps there are oaths taken on Skinny-l that supercede those made in the temple? Who knows. but no doubt the secretive workings of the list were attractive to Pyle.

And Scratch is right about this cold "student of human nature" business. Pull off the legs of this grasshopper, what will it do? It's like, not exactly behaviorism, but something more antisocial. Something more in common with the brilliant serial killer who is fascinated and "stunned" by the odd mannerisms and grunts of the frantic little ants that surround him. And without any ability to empathize with them and their insanity.

[_MsJack]

I don't think it's a good argument to say that this young lady who was harrassed by a coordinated effort from behind the scenes of skinny-l deserved it because she wasn't even funny.

I'm not arguing that she deserved anything because she wasn't funny, Gadianton. But the only actual documentation we have of "harassing e-mails" is what DCP offered up himself on the Worst of the Anti-Mormon Web site. A total of five e-mails, some of which consisted of only one or two lines, and all of them were replies to e-mails Kristi herself sent. She kicked the beehive and ran, then got angry when the bees chased after her. She says she got lots and lots of e-mails from the Skinny-L crowd, but where's the proof?

Kristi herself never provides any documentation of the "harassment," or her age by the way. Everyone assumes she was young and calls her young because she acted so immature, but I don't recall ever seeing her establish her own age anywhere on her site, and I've seen older woman act pretty darn crazy and immature. Furthermore, her web site qualifies as HER harassing DCP and Gary Novak, much moreso than they ever bothered her. She's just not a credible witness to scream "harassment!"

Should people with PhDs have fun at the expense of much, much dumber people? Personally it doesn't bother me, I think I've become de-sensitized to the phenomenon by three years of participating on the World of Warcraft forums, where smarter people mock dumber people for sport on a regular basis. In this case the Skinny-L folks allegedly picked on someone who came out foaming at the mouth and attacked them, so I really can't feel that bad for her.

Anyways, JP Holding doesn't sound very interested in all of this, says he does not remember the situation very well and declined to come himself. So I can't get any details for you that aren't available on Kristi's or Novak's web sites. I do recall, when he started getting e-mails from the Skinny-L folks, they of course started in with the condescending insults. One of them said something to the effect of, "We're so badass, you have no idea who you're dealing with little man," and JP's reply was something like:

"No, you have no idea who you're dealing with! I am the terror that flaps in the night! I am the nightmare who awakens you from your dreams!"

I nearly fell out of my seat laughing. The Skinny-L folks had no clue what he was talking about.

That's all I got, enjoy this topic y'all.

[_beastie]

I think the only important lesson to learn in all this is that if an individual engages in a personal email exchange with an apologist on the skinny list, he/she should expect those personal exchanges to be shared with the entire group, should expect to receive replies from the entire group, and should expect to see the email exchanges posted on a website one day (either pro or anti LDS site).

Since this seems to be repetitive behavior, the skinny members should probably attach an appropriate warning on the bottom of their emails, warning correspondents not to have any expectation of privacy (and vice versa for anti's doing the same thing).

[_Gadianton]

Kicked the behive huh? Interesting imagery. There is something hive like about Skinny-L for sure. They are the other side of the coin I suppose of the behive as industry.

If Kristi was older, and still suffered from all the things mentioned, then that only strengthens the case for her mental instability and the advantage taken of her.

By the way, I mentioned people with phd's who had made covenants to follow Christ in the temple, not merely smart people. See, one of these "smart people" has read like, thousands of books and constantly brags about the elite men of the world he circles with. You will not find him playing kid's games like World of Warcraft, but instead attending operas you and I can't pronounce all over the the world.

So we aren't just talking smart, but educated, cultured, and deeply religious. More than a little strange, I think.

I do recall, when he started getting e-mails from the Skinny-L folks, they of course started in with the condescending insults. One of them said something to the effect of, "We're so badass, you have no idea who you're dealing with little man,"

Wow! Really? You know, this was apparently the attitude the apologists had when they strolled through the doors of the Yale conference a few years back that they paid for.

[_MsJack]

By the way, I mentioned people with phd's who had made covenants to follow Christ in the temple, not merely smart people.

True, but if they want to defend their behavior in light of their religion, that's their call. I'm just saying I don't see it as harassment in this case that they sent her a few e-mails after she came after them.

See, one of these "smart people" has read like, thousands of books and constantly brags about the elite men of the world he circles with. You will not find him playing kid's games like World of Warcraft, but instead attending operas you and I can't pronounce all over the the world.

You know though, Gadianton, I brought it up because it's interesting. I used to think LDS apologists were some of the best in the world at dishing insults and sounding snide and condescending. Then I started playing World of Warcraft and well... these nerdy gamers who are reviled and mocked as basement virgins with no life are much, much better at it. If it came down to a match of wits between World of Warcraft players and LDS apologists, the WoW players would break them in half.

I do think the two groups are similar in that they both use a computer screen to hide behind and poke fun at people through the Internet, which is just a cold medium to begin with. Or to put it another way...



Should they be doing it as devout LDS scholarly types? Well, that's one I'm personally not gonna pass judgment on. Everyone's gotta have a hobby I guess.

[_beastie]

Very thought provoking, Jack. It seems to me that a comparison between internet gamers (if that's the right term) and the skinny apologists would be pretty apt. They both have carefully constructed an imaginary world and developed roles within that world that are deeply satisfying and addictive. Both groups exaggerate tribal tendencies and tend to emphasize their "badassedness".

Of course, one group recognizes fantasy for what it is, and the other does not.

[Guest]

1. DCP is embarrassed about the things which have occurred on Skinny-L, and so now he wants to distance FARMS from said "things."

I'm not even slightly embarrassed by anything that's happened on Skinny-L, the vast majority of which you know absolutely nothing about. It doesn't matter to me at all that you don't like my sense of humor. If the quality of my life depended to any degree at all on having your good opinion, I would have collapsed in despair several years ago, when you began your obsessive personal crusade against me.

But I don't need to "distance" FARMS from Skinny-L. They're two quite distinct things, with some slight overlap in membership. (As, for that matter, are the Catholic Church and the National Football League, the Democratic Party and Acme Dry Cleaners.) Some of those who belong to Skinny-L have or have had some connection with FARMS. Others haven't. The vast majority of those involved with FARMS (an enormously larger group) have never had even the slightest connection with Skinny-L. In fact, the vast majority of that vast majority have almost certainly never heard of Skinny-L. In other words, they know very nearly as little about it as you do.

2. DCP is trying to brush aside the obvious fact that Lou Midgley, Bill Hamblin, and other noteworthy apologists participate on Skinny-L.

Not at all. Lou Midgley and Bill Hamblin definitely participate on Skinny-L. So what? Apart from being yet another watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics, of course, this doesn't seem terribly important. Far and away most "noteworthy apologists" don't participate on Skinny-L. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them have probably never heard of Skinny-L. (Why on earth would they have heard of this small private list, which is often focused on things wholly unrelated to apologetics?) Which means that they are even more uninformed about Skinny-L than you are.

So, what, we are left to wonder, does "most" actually mean here? 50%? 60%? 90%? We don't know. We cannot know since the participants, notably DCP, want to keep the list private.

It's a private list.

There's nothing secretive about it. As a matter of fact, just for the heck of it I supplied a complete list of the members of Skinny-L to somebody here on this board a few weeks ago by PM -- I may have forgotten one or two non-posting subscribers, but I think I got everybody -- so that that person could see precisely how vast and sinister the membership is.

I'm sure that if The Good Professor is serious about dispelling the notion that FARMS and Skinny-L are related, he will supply the complete name list of Skinny participants. Surely there's nothing to be embarrassed about concerning the names of the participants.

That's true. There's absolutely nothing embarrassing about the names of the participants. (Names like Monson, Eyring, Uchtdorf, Packer, Holland, Oaks, Romney, Reid -- these are nothing to be ashamed of, und, ven ve assume power in ze coming coup, Herr Scartch, you vill learn to reschpect zem even if you don't already.)

Look, there is absolutely nothing I can do to allay your paranoid fantasies, and I'm not going to give you any more names so that you can construct more of your creepy "dossiers" on friends of mine who have absolutely nothing to do with you or your conspiracy theories. Do your own work. If you seriously imagine that you've stumbled across the Mormon equivalent of the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, or the Bilderbergers, call on your creepy network of alleged "anonymous informants."

Or, better yet, get a life.

[_Daniel Peterson]

this young lady who was harrassed by a coordinated effort from behind the scenes of skinny-l

A "coordinated effort"?

Something more in common with the brilliant serial killer

!!!!!!

Wow. And I really do mean "Wow."

Wonderful news, Scartch: Gadianton has your back.

[_Mister Scratch]

1. DCP is embarrassed about the things which have occurred on Skinny-L, and so now he wants to distance FARMS from said "things."

I'm not even slightly embarrassed by anything that's happened on Skinny-L, the vast majority of which you know absolutely nothing about. It doesn't matter to me at all that you don't like my sense of humor.

Oh, I bet that *my* opinion doesn't matter to you. I am quite sure that's true. On the other hand, you wouldn't be on this thread, flailing about in bitter desperation, if some *other* person's opinion "didn't matter." The mere fact that you are trying to so hard to distance FARMS from the Skinny List is blinding proof of this.

But I don't need to "distance" FARMS from Skinny-L. They're two quite distinct things, with some slight overlap in membership.

And yet, the similarities are striking:

---Both groups draw upon the same "talent pool"
---Both groups utilize petty name-calling
---Both groups revel in attacking critics
---Both groups rely upon dubious "support"/"peer review"

So, again, would you like to revise your earlier statement that you are not embarrassed about the activities of the l-skinny apologists? Would you care much if the "big spenders" who donate to the MI knew about the goings-on of l-skinny? I bet you would, which is why you are now trying to put a whole lot of distance between the two groups.

(As, for that matter, are the Catholic Church and the National Football League, the Democratic Party and Acme Dry Cleaners.) Some of those who belong to Skinny-L have or have had some connection with FARMS. Others haven't. The vast majority of those involved with FARMS (an enormously larger group) have never had even the slightest connection with Skinny-L. In fact, the vast majority of that vast majority have almost certainly never heard of Skinny-L. In other words, they know very nearly as little about it as you do.

A nice way of sidestepping the issue. First, make some meaningless observations about wholly unrelated organizations, then proceed to note that a lot of people in FARMS don't know about l-skinny. Well, duh! That's precisely the issue here! I bet you'd really hate it if certain FARMS folks were to discover some of the "gang-like" stuff you and the other Skinny-ites were up to.

2. DCP is trying to brush aside the obvious fact that Lou Midgley, Bill Hamblin, and other noteworthy apologists participate on Skinny-L.

Not at all. Lou Midgley and Bill Hamblin definitely participate on Skinny-L. So what?

I'm afraid that it shows you being less-than-honest once again. You hide stuff pertaining to the Quinn smear campaign. You equivocate on the issue of apologetic payment. You deceive people via your "FreeThinker" and "LogicChopper" sockpuppets. Now you claim that there is "no relation" between FARMS and l-skinny, when, quite clearly, there is.

Far and away most "noteworthy apologists" don't participate on Skinny-L. In fact, the overwhelming majority of them have probably never heard of Skinny-L. (Why on earth would they have heard of this small private list, which is often focused on things wholly unrelated to apologetics?)

Since the activities which have occurred within this list reflect on the reputation of FARMS and LDS apologetics in general, I would imagine that they'd be somewhat interested in learning what has happened. I would imagine that wealthy LDS who have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Mopologetic effort would be interested to learn that this kind of stuff is "part of the package." Tell me, Does a "Liahona"-level membership come with the guarantee that an unstable Internet critic will be needled and ridiculed to the point of profanity?

So, what, we are left to wonder, does "most" actually mean here? 50%? 60%? 90%? We don't know. We cannot know since the participants, notably DCP, want to keep the list private.

It's a private list.

Boy, I bet you wish that were true! But, instead, you, and Gary Novak, and Stan Barker, and others thought it would be super-duper fun to post all of your exploits on SHIELDS. "Private"? Methinks not.

There's nothing secretive about it. As a matter of fact, just for the heck of it I supplied a complete list of the members of Skinny-L to somebody here on this board a few weeks ago by PM -- I may have forgotten one or two non-posting subscribers, but I think I got everybody -- so that that person could see precisely how vast and sinister the membership is.

Right: you secretly shared the list. Boy, you're really struggling today, aren't you, Prof. P.?

I'm sure that if The Good Professor is serious about dispelling the notion that FARMS and Skinny-L are related, he will supply the complete name list of Skinny participants. Surely there's nothing to be embarrassed about concerning the names of the participants.

That's true. There's absolutely nothing embarrassing about the names of the participants. (Names like Monson, Eyring, Uchtdorf, Packer, Holland, Oaks, Romney, Reid -- these are nothing to be ashamed of, und, ven ve assume power in ze coming coup, Herr Scartch, you vill learn to reschpect zem even if you don't already.)

Huh? Oh, I see: yet another dodge. Another attempt to slip away from admitting the obvious---you are embarrassed about what l-skinny did to Kristi. Gee, I wonder: would you like it if Elders Oaks, Eyring, Packer & et. al. were added to l-skinny? Do you think they would have joined in on the "gang assault" on Kristi?

Look, there is absolutely nothing I can do to allay your paranoid fantasies, and I'm not going to give you any more names so that you can construct more of your creepy "dossiers" on friends of mine who have absolutely nothing to do with you or your conspiracy theories. Do your own work. If you seriously imagine that you've stumbled across the Mormon equivalent of the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, or the Bilderbergers, call on your creepy network of alleged "anonymous informants."

Yet another (rather poor) dodge. What, I have to ask, does any of this have to do with your obvious efforts to distance l-skinny from the more "respectable" world of FARMS/LDS apologetics? You could do a better job of saving face by just admitting that you feel badly about l-skinny's behavior.

[_Jersey Girl]

Right: you secretly shared the list. Boy, you're really struggling today, aren't you, Prof. P.?

What does that mean? Are you saying that he *wouldn't* share the list? That he *would* share the list or that he's lying?

What's the gist here?