From the archives: LDS male missionary forced to have sex

[Guest]

Let me preface this by saying: I'm not a man and don't really know what I'm talking about! Yet, I think I've known enough men and talked to them enough about this sort of stuff to comment on it. :)

And for Monkier, if it were such a horrific ordeal for him there is nothing anyone could do to cause an erection.

I knew a guy that had some problems with his testes -- they somehow twisted about inside him (I don't know the proper terms or even how that happened?) and his testes swelled up and he was in EXCRUCIATING pain. Went to the emergency room. When the nurse started fiddling with him he was hard in a nanosecond much to his embarrassment.

I just do not see how a tall strong man could have sex with a small woman, with a full erection, to the point that he ejaculates, and call that rape. Now an unwilling woman CAN be forced to engage in sexual intercourse, but c'mon folks if the guy is flaccid it will not go in.

Okay, well, let's just say I wanted some man and was a crazy psycho bitch that went and kidnapped him, then tied him up to my bed. He didn't want to be there. Yet, wowzers -- he liked what he saw. Yet, he really wanted to be released. I probabaly could get that man erect despite himself. I could make him stimulated even if mentally he really didn't want to enjoy the stimulation.

Now if all she got was rubbing on his flaccid penis, I might call that sexual assault.

Yah, I would too.

~edited out stuff~

[_beastie]

I'm not going to flame you, but do want to point out that a nineteen year old sex deprived male can get an instant erection from a good strong breeze, much less from being manipulated by a naked woman. Getting the erection, from what I understand from my female perspective, does not necessarily mean you are happy about the erection or want to have sex with whoever caused it.

[_MsJack]

Wasn't he just recently RAPED?? Why would he still be there on the mission?

Perhaps he was dedicated to what he felt he had been called to do. Same reason female rape victims will still get up and go to work or school the next day: life has to go on.

Perhaps he did get involved with the crazy bitch and ended up doing the nasty with her and felt soooo horrible about it, being a Mormon missionary and all, that he made up the story to cover it up?

Possibly, but there are a lot of problems with that. Why did she have the male accomplice tagging along if he was willing to go with her? Why was she caught years later stalking him at the airport where he worked? And why go public with a story he knew he'd be mocked for telling? Wouldn't it have just been easier to privately confess the fornication to church authorities?

It's certainly possible to find reasonable answers to all those questions, but it seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through just for a little good ol' fashioned fornication.

He wouldn't be the first one to use that to get out of something...

So you're saying it's common for men to claim women raped them to cover up fornication in the face of religious authorities? Cuz this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

And further, he was 6'4" for cripessakes! Even if he were handcuffed to the bed how could a little lady get him to do anything?

She had a male accomplice who subdued him for her. His size is really irrelevant.

If all she did was strip him naked and rub her genitalia on his flaccid penis, does that constitute raping him?

And for Monkier, if it were such a horrific ordeal for him there is nothing anyone could do to cause an erection.

It's definitely sexual assault, and different jurisdictions have different ways of treating sexual assault. Some count it as rape, some don't. I think they're both disgusting and should be treated the same. If a man tied a woman down and rubbed his penis (erect or not) all over her vagina, but there was no penetration, I'd still call it rape.

That said though, maybe he was attracted to her (they'd apparently had a prior relationship). Maybe his body was turned on. But that doesn't mean he said "yes" to sex with her. If her male accomplice chloroformed him and tied him to a bed before he woke up, and then she came in and rubbed her mostly-naked body all over him until he got an erection then hopped on, it's rape. Ejaculation is irrelevant.

The odd specifics of what's mechanically necessary for a woman to rape a man aside, what appalls me about this story is that if the genders were swapped, no one would be denying the victim's story. No one would be asking a male accused of rape to pose nude for newspapers and talking about how hot he is and how his victim shouldn't complain because lots of women would do him willingly. I think the victim deserves the benefit of the doubt in a rape case, regardless of gender, until the guilt or innocence of the accused can be determined. And in this case the accused fled the country and was never tried.

[_Moniker]

I'm not going to flame you, but do want to point out that a nineteen year old sex deprived male can get an instant erection from a good strong breeze, much less from being manipulated by a naked woman. Getting the erection, from what I understand from my female perspective, does not necessarily mean you are happy about the erection or want to have sex with whoever caused it.

Precisely! This is how young boys are even sexually assaulted by other men! They are stimulated DESPITE themselves and then feel immense guilt about it.

[_Moniker]

The odd specifics of what's mechanically necessary for a woman to rape a man aside, what appalls me about this story is that if the genders were swapped, no one would be denying the victim's story. No one would be asking a male accused of rape to pose nude for newspapers and talking about how hot he is and how his victim shouldn't complain because lots of women would do him willingly. I think the victim deserves the benefit of the doubt in a rape case, regardless of gender, until the guilt or innocence of the accused can be determined. And in this case the accused fled the country and was never tried.

It appalls me, as well. When young men in our society are violated people don't really believe it. They make jokes about it and say they wish they were in their position. If you do NOT say yes to sex it is rape. Done deal.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I'm not going to flame you, but do want to point out that a nineteen year old sex deprived male can get an instant erection from a good strong breeze, much less from being manipulated by a naked woman. Getting the erection, from what I understand from my female perspective, does not necessarily mean you are happy about the erection or want to have sex with whoever caused it.

Too true. There are times when you don't want to pop a woody [see graduation, at a wedding ceremony, while giving a presentation, etc] but sometimes it happens despite itself. That little bastard between our legs really does have a mind of his own. Bastard.

[_MsJack]

There are times when you don't want to pop a woody [see graduation, at a wedding ceremony, while giving a presentation, etc] but sometimes it happens despite itself. That little bastard between our legs really does have a mind of his own. Bastard.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... for some reason I'm strongly tempted to use that as my signature on the World of Warcraft forums. I'm glad a guy was finally brave enough to chime in and confirm this for all of us girls.

by the way, if any mods are paying attention to this thread, maybe we should move it to the telestial forum? It's been a very technical discussion of rape, but it's still kind of gotten rated R.

[_Mary]

B & L,
I'll go with Gramps on this one, Kirk Anderson was in our area just before this happened to him, and he was a quiet, regular, good, dedicated missionary. He was nice, not flirty, not arrogant..that's how I remember him anyway.

He was kidnapped at gunpoint, and in my opinion was not a willing party to any of this (they also had used chloroform on him).

He was a 19 year old kid, despite his size and she was 26, old enough to know better. I wonder what possessed her accomplice to help her out...really weird.

Joyce McKinney consistently lied to police and eventually jumped bail, despite arguing that she wanted to clear her name through the British Legal System. Everything about her actions suggests she was and still is a bit 'unhinged'. The clone dog thing is as strange as the 1970's stuff.

Just my opinions,

Mary

[_gramps]

When I arrived at the mission home in Epsom, Surrey, circa 1978, I met Elder Andersen. He was the Mission President's secretary at the time. The events mentioned above had happened shortly before I arrived.

He looked terrible. He was thin, his pants falling off him. Really, he looked bad. But, he was the nicest guy. And I really enjoyed talking with him.

I hope he is doing well now.

WTF??

Wasn't he just recently RAPED?? Why would he still be there on the mission?

I know I will get flamed here for the following but here goes...

Perhaps he did get involved with the crazy bitch and ended up doing the nasty with her and felt soooo horrible about it, being a Mormon missionary and all, that he made up the story to cover it up?

He wouldn't be the first one to use that to get out of something...

And further, he was 6'4" for cripessakes! Even if he were handcuffed to the bed how could a little lady get him to do anything?
If all she did was strip him naked and rub her genitalia on his flaccid penis, does that constitute raping him?

And for Monkier, if it were such a horrific ordeal for him there is nothing anyone could do to cause an erection.

I just do not see how a tall strong man could have sex with a small woman, with a full erection, to the point that he ejaculates, and call that rape. Now an unwilling woman CAN be forced to engage in sexual intercourse, but c'mon folks if the guy is flaccid it will not go in.

Now if all she got was rubbing on his flaccid penis, I might call that sexual assault.

Ok FLAME ME.

Here is what I know: I arrived in January, '78. Stayed in the home next to the temple for an evening and did some tracting. The next morning we were driven to the mission office. The first Elder I met was Elder Andersen. We had already been told about the story by the APs the night before and the next morning.

It was a bit of a shock to see him. He didn't look good. None of his clothes fit him.

Now, what the APs told us about the whole thing: He was really, really grilled in interviews by a lot of different top brass (apostles, seventies, etc.) They asked him everything. Everything.

He wasn't allowed out tracting. He worked in the office and then stayed at home in the evening or went to members' homes. The APs did not take this seriously and were making some really crude jokes about the whole thing. I once got the impression that the whole gang of the APs and the mission office guys, who all lived in the same flat, were having a pretty good laugh over it. I mean, including Elder Andersen.

This was my first day in the mission field. LOL

But, that is only an impression from no more than 24 hours spent with these APs. Who knows what happened? I can say this: Elder Andersen, the one I knew at the mission office, was a really nice guy. Definitely humbled. But, genuinely a good guy. He didn't grow up so far from me. Skyline High School and East High School. Just across the canyon. We had a lot to talk about for a few days until we were sent off to our first assignments.

[_gramps]

Memories are flooding back now.

I can see the vixen, sitting naked, bareback on a horse, with a python wrapped around her. A 'page three' expose. :)

Can you remember that one, Miss Taken?

I don't care what anyone says about her looks. For a young 19-20 year old, on a mission in England, it looked pretty good.

Richard M. Eyre was the Mission President at the time. The one who co-authored a bunch of books with our favorite, truth-telling GA, the world-series pitcher, missile-dodging Paul H. Dunn.

Fun times!