Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

[_dartagnan]

You're not going to get Dan to rebuke anyone in his camp. Why commit social suicide because of an anti-Mormon request? No matter how bad it is, if you present it to him, he will play dumb like he never read it before, anor maybe he will argue that he is not obligated to respond to everything he disagrees with. I've heard it all before. What Dan doesn't realize is that sometimes his silence is louder than his voice.

[_bcspace]

Not entirely. I understand the general Mormon attitude towards apostates. I'm the scum of the earth and not worth your time. You knew the path I was on as well as I did, but you also knew there was no apologetic remedy to steer me away. So you gave up.

Ah! The crux of the matter. Geez Kevin, I always thought you were a decent fellow (and spot on regarding the Islam issue) even though I knew you were an apostate. I wish I had known you sooner.

But yeah, LDS doctrine forces me to hate you now. Not!

[_Daniel Peterson]

Correction: Dartagnan thinks he understands it.

[Guest]

Well dang Brian, I didn't really have you in mind when I wrote that. But we haven't talked for at least a couple of years. I don't see you being a hypocrite because you have never treated me differently than any time prior.

But I think it is spot on to speak in general terms regarding the LDS view towards apostates. That's the worst thing you can be and there really is no compassion in the Church with regards to that camp. They are demonized over and over because maintaining secure faith among the believers is more important than outreach towards ex-Mormons. There is just too much risk of losing more to apostasy when talking to that group.

Dan has already demonstrated his willingness to support such thinking over at MADB. This was one of the early debates where he and I knocked heads. Every time a Mormon would share a "story" about how people they knew left the Church because of some kind of sin, Dan was there ready to concur that this was his impression just the same.

I could sense several Mormons licking their chops while Tradd was implying that I cheated on my wife and about me getting married under false pretenses. This is the kind of stuff they would eat up in a heart beat. A new thread at MADB would be started just to discuss this topic. It would be understood as further "proof" that apostates have no moral values whatsoever. I can actually hear some of them rooting for my wife to divorce me. I know my bishop in Brazil is.

[_dartagnan]

Then why not explain it for us Dan? Why not explain the situation if you think you really have a case?

Oh yea, that would require showing us your cards.

This is just a game to you.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Dan has already demonstrated his willingness to support such thinking over at MADB.

Just for the record: I've expressly rejected such thinking, here and elsewhere, on several occasions.

This was one of the early debates where he and I knocked heads. Every time a Mormon would share a "story" about how people they knew left the Church because of some kind of sin, Dan was there ready to concur that this was his impression just the same.

I know people who, in my opinion, have left the Church because of sin; I know people who have not. (As I've explicitly said, here and elsewhere, several times.)

I could sense several Mormons licking their chops while Tradd was implying that I cheated on my wife and about me getting married under false pretenses. This is the kind of stuff they would eat up in a heart beat. A new thread at MADB would be started just to discuss this topic. It would be understood as further "proof" that apostates have no moral values whatsoever. I can actually hear some of them rooting for my wife to divorce me. I know my bishop in Brazil is.

The sentiments attributed to Mormons in the paragraph above don't even remotely accord with my thinking.

Good night all. And to you, too, Kevin.

[_bcspace]

Well dang Brian, I didn't really have you in mind when I wrote that. But we haven't talked for at least a couple of years. I don't see you being a hypocrite because you have never treated me differently than any time prior.

You know, for a little while, I didn't know you were an apostate because your website was still pro.

I still like you dude and I still think that even as an anti, you make a valuable contribution to LDS apologetics by keeping us on our toes. How's about blowing off this whole issue of who offended who and give us hell on some issues?

But I think it is spot on to speak in general terms regarding the LDS view towards apostates. That's the worst thing you can be and there really is no compassion in the Church with regards to that camp. They are demonized over and over because maintaining secure faith among the believers is more important than outreach towards ex-Mormons. There is just too much risk of losing more to apostasy when talking to that group.

I think it depends on the type of apostasy. There is the 3 Nephi 18:32 kind and then there is the Alma 11:23 kind.

Every time a Mormon would share a "story" about how people they knew left the Church because of some kind of sin, Dan was there ready to concur that this was his impression just the same.

Unbelief is a sin (D&C 58:15). Can't be helped.

I could sense several Mormons licking their chops while Tradd was implying that I cheated on my wife and about me getting married under false pretenses. This is the kind of stuff they would eat up in a heart beat. A new thread at MADB would be started just to discuss this topic. It would be understood as further "proof" that apostates have no moral values whatsoever. I can actually hear some of them rooting for my wife to divorce me. I know my bishop in Brazil is.

Tradd is an admitted Hizbollah supporter. Nuff said.

[_dartagnan]

Just for the record: I've expressly rejected such thinking, here and elsewhere, on several occasions.

You certainly didn't in the thread I have in mind. That was our main point of disagreement. I'll look it up tomorrow.

The sentiments attributed to Mormons in the paragraph above don't even remotely accord with my thinking.

Really? I guess you're unique... again. How many FAIR/FARMS articles note the immorality of any given ex-Mormon? Simple mistakes are always presented by the apologist as a willful attempt to deceive. That's a Satanic attribute, after all. How many discussions in Mormon forums are dedicated to things like Ed Decker's adultery, Walter Martion's lies about his ordination or Jerald Tanner's smoking addiction. I've read plenty over the years, and the reason these were discussed is because it served a purpose. The implied logic went like this. If these people sin like this, then why would you believe anything they said about Mormonism? They're clearly run by Satan.

Hell, even Pahoran implied in a FROB article that JP Holding was being deceptive because he used a pseudonym. [Incidentally, JP has legally changed his name to "JP Holding."]

But I guess you're unfamiliar with all of this, even though you edited many of the published examples.

[_beastie]

Just for kicks and giggles, here is just one of Pahoran's extraordinarily inflammatory comments about "anti Mormons" (which, according to him, meant anyone opposed to the truth claims of Mormonism, which would include all critics):

The thread was discussing Illinois' apology to LDS for their past treatment:

No, they didn't know that that in particular would be the effect.

But they certainly knew that they were making war on their own people.

And they certainly knew that wars kill innocent people.

Of course, maybe they thought that the only civilian casualties would be Mormons.

And, given your demonstrated anti-Mormonism, you are undoubtedly okay with that.

The fact remains uncontested that if the 19th-century anti-Mormons hadn't persuaded Buchanan to commit his blunder, the MMM would never have happened.

Oh, just by the way: it is entirely false to call the Iron County militia "a Quorum of Mormon priesthood holders."

As you really should have known.

And which I give you credit for probably having the (rather minimal) level of knowledge necessary to enable you to know. Regards, Pahoran

Z thread

Now, of course critics made such a hue and cry about Pahoran's repeated offensive behavior, and eventually mods would ban Pahoran for a couple of months to "cool down", or forbid him from using the term "anti-mormon" for a brief period. The mods at Z, at that point in time, really did try to apply rules even-handedly (unlike our MAD friends). But my point is that other apologists rarely - if ever - protested to pahoran (I say "rarely" only because it's possible that it may have happened and I didn't see it, but I don't remember ever seeing it). Even now DCP refuses to admit that Pahoran was every bit as offensive as Kevin ever was, and probably more so.

The reality of life is that we all suffer from tribal bias. We are far more inclined to notice the sins of the "other" and ignore the same sins in our own tribe. Everyone suffers from this flaw, and to pretend otherwise is pure silliness, and it's to debunk that pure silliness that I share Pahoran's comments.

[_EAllusion]

Pahoran was basically next-to-nonstop insult and bigotry, so a high % of anything he wrote on ZLMB should be quotable to demonstrate just what he is about. I'm going to go find Pahoran's infamous "pedophile" comments. That would be a nice demonstration of where DCP is coming from here.