How Many Here Would Vote For The Following candidates,

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How Many Here Would Vote For The Following:

 
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_richardMdBorn
_Emeritus
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Post by _richardMdBorn »

Mahonri wrote:"Indeed. At least Bush did the right thing in Iraq and Afghanistan"

How is attacking Iraq, a country that was no threat to the US, the 'right thing'? They had a few SCUD missiles with a range just over 90 miles. What were they going to do, launch them towards Miami and pray to Allah for a tailwind?

Bush is a murderer and a warmonger, an international Criminal who should be tried by the World Court for his crimes. The US is an invading nation financing an Army of Occupation. We still have not declared WAR on Iran or Afghanistan though we occupy both countries. Afghanistan 'may' have some justification if you stretch it. Iraq has none. We are nothing more than invaders and murderers as a Nation now. NO moral high ground as our leaders kill and torture with impunity and in apparent safety with fools who support them.
I suggest that you read

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewa ... able-11456
_Angus McAwesome
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Post by _Angus McAwesome »

GoodK wrote:I suggest the following article - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1015766/posts


Sweet Zombie Jesus... The Free Republic? They're about as unbiased a source as Fox News.


The question then, becomes this: Should the date or timing of this unpostponable confrontation have been left to Saddam Hussein to pick?


Every time some Republitard drags this broke down horse out I like to ask them exactly how and with what Saddam's Iraq would have been able to confront us. He had no navy to speak of, his remaining air force was a pathetic joke, and his longest ranged ballistic missile system was barely able to hit targets in Israel, much less threaten the continental United States. So once again, where was the threat?
I was afraid of the dark when I was young. "Don't be afraid, my son," my mother would always say. "The child-eating night goblins can smell fear." Bitch... - Kreepy Kat
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Angus McAwesome wrote:Sweet Zombie Jesus... The Free Republic? They're about as unbiased a source as Fox News.


Actually, it originally appeared here, Slate is owned by the Washinton Post. Christopher Hitchens doesn't work or write for The Free Republic. I linked to Free Republic because it came up on my Google.


The question then, becomes this: Should the date or timing of this unpostponable confrontation have been left to Saddam Hussein to pick?


Every time some Republitard drags this broke down horse out....


I am not a Republican, but I do stand by my position--despite the trendy, yet tired old song that Saddam was no threat to the U.S.

I've realized that usually people who watch MTV and have a very limited understanding of world history usually say this.

...I like to ask them exactly how and with what Saddam's Iraq would have been able to confront us.



Hitchens wrote: Here, it is simply astonishing how many people remain willing to give Saddam Hussein the benefit of the doubt


It's not all about catching Saddam with his finger on the button, unfortunately. There is some history to consider -- much more history than what is found in Loose Change.

He had no navy to speak of, his remaining air force was a pathetic joke, and his longest ranged ballistic missile system was barely able to hit targets in Israel, much less threaten the continental United States. So once again, where was the threat?


Saddam's regime made it impossible to conduct serious inspections, first of all. Second, the Kay inquiry has already revealed compelling evidence indicating "a complex concealment program, of the designing of missiles well beyond the permitted legal range, of the intimidation of scientists and witnesses, and of the incubation of deadly biological toxins."

"The Baathists declared a very impressive stockpile of weapons as late as 1999 and never cared to inform the U.N inspectorate what they had done with it."

"I am pleased to notice the disappearance from the peacenik argument of one line of attack—namely that Saddam Hussein was "too secular" to have anything to do with jihad forces. The alliance between his murderous fedayeen and the jihadists is now visible to all—perhaps there are some who are still ready to believe that this connection only began this year. Meanwhile, an increasing weight of disclosure shows that the Iraqi Mukhabarat both sought and achieved contact with the Bin Laden forces in the 1990s and subsequently. Again, was one to watch this happening and hope that it remained relatively low-level?"

Much more salient is the story of Saddam's dealings with Kim Jong-il. You may remember the secret and disguised shipload of North Korean Scuds, intercepted on its way to Yemen by the Spanish navy just before war began... "

"there are reams of verifiable contact between al-Qaida and Baghdad. Bin Laden supported Saddam, and his supporters still do, and where do you think this lovely friendship was going?"

"Even more interesting is the fashion in which the deal broke down. Having paid some $10 million dollars to North Korea, the Iraqi side found that foot-dragging was going on—this is the discussion revealed on one of the hard drives—and sought a meeting about where the money might be refunded. North Korea's explanation for its slipped deadline was that things were getting a little ticklish. In the month before the coalition intervened in Iraq, Saddam's envoys came back empty-handed from a meeting in Damascus. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (just for once I can use this expression without toppling into cliché) to deduce that the presence of a large force all along Iraq's borders might have had something to do with North Korea's cold feet."

Finally:

"So the "drumbeat" scared off the deal-makers, and Saddam Hussein never did get Rodong missiles, which might have been able to hit targets far away from Iraq. Elsewhere in the Kay report, there is convincing evidence that Iraqi scientists were working on missiles, and missile fuels, with ranges longer than those permitted by the United Nations. So there is an explanation for why the completed and readied material was never "found" by inspectors before or after the invasion: It hadn't been acquired quite yet. Which meant that Saddam could not confront the international community in the way that North Korea has lately been doing, by brandishing weapons that do in fact have deterrent power. As in previous cases—the parts of a nuclear centrifuge found in the yard of Iraqi scientist Mehdi Obeidi, for example—the man in charge of these covert weapons programs was Saddam's son Qusai. I find I can live with the idea that Qusai never got to succeed his father as Kim Jong-il did. Imagine a North Korea, with attitude, on the sea lanes of the Persian Gulf—and with "deniable" but undeniable ties to al-Qaida. That was in our future if action had not been taken."
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Sweet Zombie Jesus... The Free Republic? They're about as unbiased a source as Fox News.


Actually, it isn't about "bias"; its about serious thinking, critical analysis, intellectual honesty, and a desire to know the truth, to to arrive as close to the truth as possible, to the degree such is knowledge attainable, on an issue by issue basis.

Fox is biased, but not nearly to the degree as say, CNN or CBS, who, unlike Fox, who at least provides balanced coverage of various points of view, are perennially engaged in vigorous self censorship. Its interesting how you conflate Free Republic, a conservative opinion blog, with FOX NEWS, a cable news station run and funded by people as liberal as any in the mainstream media culture, but which provides a substantial conservative presence virtually unavailable in the traditional old media.

The problem with the leftist mainstream media isn't its bias, but its conflation of editorial content with news reporting, such that the two are indistinguishable. People use bias as an attack word when they cannot rationally engage the content of argument. All human views are biased.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Am I the only one that voted for McGovern? lol
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_Angus McAwesome
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Re:

Post by _Angus McAwesome »

GoodK wrote:Actually, it originally appeared here, Slate is owned by the Washinton Post. Christopher Hitchens doesn't work or write for The Free Republic. I linked to Free Republic because it came up on my Google.


Hitchens is a republican shill. Guy's been a constant and consistent apologist for Dubya's inept


GoodK wrote:I am not a Republican, but I do stand by my position--despite the trendy, yet tired old song that Saddam was no threat to the U.S.


Which is why you can't demonstrate what threat it was that Saddam posed to the US. Instead of showing facts about what capabilities Saddam may have had to disrupt our interests in the regiuon or actually attack us, you give me more of the standard issue "Stay The Course" bull.


GoodK wrote:It's not all about catching Saddam with his finger on the button, unfortunately. There is some history to consider -- much more history than what is found in Loose Change.


What button was there for Saddam to press? He had no navy with which to project power, his air force was a shambles, and he had no ability at all to attack the US itself. At best he could pose a minor threat to one of his neighbors, but the last time he tried that... Well we all saw how Desert Storm ended.

So once again, what threat was Saddam to us?


GoodK wrote:Saddam's regime made it impossible to conduct serious inspections, first of all. Second, the Kay inquiry has already revealed compelling evidence indicating "a complex concealment program, of the designing of missiles well beyond the permitted legal range, of the intimidation of scientists and witnesses, and of the incubation of deadly biological toxins."


Who cares. Seriously, who gives a crap. Could Saddam have used any of that against the Continental US? No. Could Saddam have used any of that on any neighboring states that the US has good relations with without suffering a brutal retaliation from the US that he couldn't do anything to defend against? No.

So he gased some Kurds and Iranians. Where was the threat to our country and our interests?


GoodK wrote:Blah blah blah words blah blah blah


No, really, what ability did Saddam have to harm either the United States or cause any signifigant harm to our interests in the region?

And this time give some concreate facts like naming specific systems verified as in service with the Iraqi military under Saddam that could pose a threat to us. because all this boogyman "what if" horse crap is just that... Horse crap.
I was afraid of the dark when I was young. "Don't be afraid, my son," my mother would always say. "The child-eating night goblins can smell fear." Bitch... - Kreepy Kat
_Droopy
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Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: How Many Here Would Vote For The Following candidates,

Post by _Droopy »

The really frightening, indeed, terrifying thing about this is that this individual represents the Democratic Party's voter base. Angus, following Mr. Franklin, deserves neither liberty or security.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: How Many Here Would Vote For The Following candidates,

Post by _Droopy »

He is also clearly not educable on these and other issues. Showing what the threat Saddam posed was is quite easy, and if Angus had ever bothered to read the David Kay, Rob/Silberman, and most importantly, the final Iraq Survey Group report (the Duelfer Report), the reams of remedial education required to bring him up to speed on the rudiments of even the most recent American history would not be required (nor is anyone here going to bother doing so, given Angus' general attitude of blind frothing toward anyone who contradicts his vacuous MoveOn.org platitudes and tin foil hat naval gazing regarding these subjects).

Saddam was attacked and deposed for several important reasons, not the least of which was to prevent his dismantled and dispersed (including dispersion outside Iraq) WMD programs from being reconstituted in the future (after the Oil for Food program had worked its magic and the heat was off). In other words, it was to prevent Saddam's WMD from ever becoming an imminent threat, or clear and present danger.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_scipio337
_Emeritus
Posts: 32
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Re: How Many Here Would Vote For The Following candidates,

Post by _scipio337 »

Meh.

Democratics are a little too disingenuous in their anti-Iraq war screeds. The should simply confess that while most of the earlier reasons to remove Saddam remain valid, the largely unforeseen costs of stabilizing Iraq in their view have proved too high, and now outweigh the dangers of leaving.

Viewed through a hindsight prism in an election year, everything is rosy.
Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo
_GoodK

Re: How Many Here Would Vote For The Following candidates,

Post by _GoodK »

Angus McAwesome wrote:
Hitchens is a republican shill.


You don't know what you are talking about. And even if you did, it still wouldn't matter what you think Hitchens is.


Angus McAwesome wrote:Which is why you can't demonstrate what threat it was that Saddam posed to the US.


Actually I can and did. I'd like for you to take a moment and go back and read my post. Then respond to something specific, because for now, it looks like I gave you an assfull of evidence that he was a threat, and you are incoherently blathering and adding nothing of substance.

Angus McAwesome wrote:Instead of showing facts about what capabilities Saddam may have had to disrupt our interests in the regiuon or actually attack us, you give me more of the standard issue "Stay The Course" bull.


You clearly did not read any of the information I posted for you. Or maybe TRL was on and you got distracted. I never even brought up reasons to stay the course.

Angus McAwesome wrote:So once again, what threat was Saddam to us?


Once again, I'd like for you to take a moment and go back and read my post. Then respond to something specific, because for now, it looks like I gave you an assfull of evidence that he was a threat, and you are incoherently blathering and adding nothing of substance.

I posted plenty of information to get you started on the answers to that question.

Angus McAwesome wrote:
GoodK wrote:Saddam's regime made it impossible to conduct serious inspections, first of all. Second, the Kay inquiry has already revealed compelling evidence indicating "a complex concealment program, of the designing of missiles well beyond the permitted legal range, of the intimidation of scientists and witnesses, and of the incubation of deadly biological toxins."


Who cares. Seriously, who gives a s***.

Could Saddam have used any of that on any neighboring states that the US has good relations with without suffering a brutal retaliation from the US that he couldn't do anything to defend against? No.

So he gased some Kurds and Iranians. Where was the threat to our country and our interests?


No, really, what ability did Saddam have to harm either the United States or cause any signifigant harm to our interests in the region?

And this time give some concreate facts like naming specific systems verified as in service with the Iraqi military under Saddam that could pose a threat to us. because all this boogyman "what if" horse crap is just that... Horse s***.


Wow. You've really argued your position well here. If anyone lurking wasn't convinced you were right, I'm sure they are now.

Just so you know, I think George W Bush is a horrible president and I dislike almost every single thing that he has done for the last 8 years. But I'm not naïve or ignorant enough to seriously believe Sadaam was not a threat.


Droopy wrote:He is also clearly not educable on these and other issues. Showing what the threat Saddam posed was is quite easy, and if Angus had ever bothered to read the David Kay, Rob/Silberman, and most importantly, the final Iraq Survey Group report (the Duelfer Report), the reams of remedial education required to bring him up to speed on the rudiments of even the most recent American history would not be required (nor is anyone here going to bother doing so, given Angus' general attitude of blind frothing toward anyone who contradicts his vacuous MoveOn.org platitudes and tin foil hat naval gazing regarding these subjects).


Unfortunately, I agree with you. Yikes.

Droopy wrote:Saddam was attacked and deposed for several important reasons, not the least of which was to prevent his dismantled and dispersed (including dispersion outside Iraq) WMD programs from being reconstituted in the future (after the Oil for Food program had worked its magic and the heat was off). In other words, it was to prevent Saddam's WMD from ever becoming an imminent threat, or clear and present danger.


I hope we never see a president - republican, democrat, or otherwise - that is willing to wait for a country like Iraq to demonstrate that they posess a nuclear weapons program capable of destroying the US before we decide to intervene. I can't fathom why people think that is a good idea.

Droopy wrote:The really frightening, indeed, terrifying thing about this is that this individual represents the Democratic Party's voter base. Angus, following Mr. Franklin, deserves neither liberty or security.


I'd like to think that the majority of Democrats are more educated than this.
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