Book of Mormon apologetic of last resort?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Oh, for f***'s sake. This is what Mormonism has finally come to...

It's . . . umm, a bit of a leap from what I said to a conclusion about Mormonism as a whole.

Still, the statement from me that Kevin quoted above is plainly a reasonable and charitable one.

I don't believe that anybody functions, on the whole, on the basis of purely intellectual considerations, Mormon or not. We are embodied beings, with emotions and pasts and psychologies. So it would be inconsistent for me to say that, although nobody else operates as a pure, rational, Vulcan mind, those who leave the Church do.

[_Pumplehoober]

That just goes to show how irrelevant this site is to me. It seemed like something I did in December when I first came back to Atlanta. As you saw, it was not used for much of anything. Three of the four people in my "friends" list, I don't even know. I was accepting friend requests via email before realizing they were just spammers. I intended to use the site to store photos and videos because I was stopping service for kevingraham.org.

Can you REALLY not remember what you did three months ago? Seriously? And how odd that you deleted all evidence once it was brought to light. You can deny all you like. The facts are, you advertised yourself as single, are living thousands of miles away from an estranged wife, and your friends consisted of young women. Call it whatever you like, but I know what the call it where I am from.

And you know this because you were visiting this page over the past few days? I always knew you were creepy Tradd.

Noticed you had the website, and mentioned it here a day later. The odd thing is that I have not thought about you or mentioned you since I spoke to you last, but you bring up my name without cause repeatedly. You tell me who has the problem.

No, I didn't "claim" I was single. Anyone who goes through the sign up process for myspace.com will note that there are eight pages of categories to be edited for any given profile. I wrote two sentences in only one area which means the section referring to marital status just sticks to the default "single."

And you simply never noticed. How terribly convenient.

Tradd is an admitted Hizbollah supporter. Nuff said.

Really, where. Do you have evidence? I suspect it is a lie, typical for you, but let's see.

All I know is that you will have to come up with something better if you really want to convince anyone you won't talk with me because of my "attitude." That is your reason isn't it? Our documented history simply won't support this, no matter what supporting witnesses you call from the MADB moderator staff.

Why bother? You know nothing about the subjects you discuss, and spend all of your time trying to prove your own racist and bigoted opinions. You have been slowly self-destructing for several years now, and after a while, it is simply sad.

[_dartagnan]

Can you REALLY not remember what you did three months ago? Seriously?

Depends on whether or not it was important enough to remember. Something as meaningless and brief as this little sign up job for something I never used, wouldn't really be worthy of recollection.

And how odd that you deleted all evidence once it was brought to light.

ROFL... thanks for showing your agenda so early Tradd.
Exactly what "evidence" do you think you "brought to light"? Anyone who wants to see this "evidence" against me can simply go here where the website is cached: http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:AQ ... cd=3&gl=us

I deleted my account when you brought it to my attention because it was something I never used. It was irrelevant and pointless. I never "met" a single person from it. For you to insinuate that I was trying to "hide the evidence," is pretty hilarious when one actually reads what's there. Anyone can go look at it and judge for themselves as to whether or not I was trying to meet anyone, let alone single women.

The page consisted of nothing more than a photo of me - the same one I previously used on this forum - and three measley sentences: "I am new in town. I've been in Brazil the past few years. I live in Marietta and just getting used to the area."

That's it. Nothing more. It has all the signs of meaninglessness. I never said I was looking for love, a date, a friend, or anything. At best, Myspace is a "place for friends," not a singles hotline. If you think any of those people in my "friends list" are people I actually know, then go email them and find out. That sounds like the kind of errand you would enjoy.

You can deny all you like.

I deny your ridiculous accusations which are without merit. They are based on your ignorance and hate towards me, nothing more. I haven't seen you online in more than a year or two and here you are, already coming back with more dirt you thought you had dug up. This is all you're ever about.

The facts are, you advertised yourself as single

No I didn't. This is your convoluted rendition which is stranger than fiction if you consider the what it would all entail. Anyone willing to go through the myspace sign up process will realize you're fishing without a pole. As I said, and as you ignored, if you fill out none of the other categories in the sign up process, it automatically says you're single. That explains that. Now if I had to actually click on the "single" button, then and only then would you have a case that I was "advertising" myself as such. I mean it isn't like I went to a Christians debate forum and refused to admit I was a Muslim in my profile, like you once did as Alabaster. I mean what could possibly be an excuse for that? Under religious affilitiation, you said you were a "seeker" and spent most of your time praising Islam as a "noble religion," as if you were some kind of objective bystander.

In any event, the fact is I didn't even notice the thing said I was single until you just brought it up, because I rarely visited the website . I never even got around to uploading any photos or videos. None. The only reason I uploaded that one photo was because the first step in the sign up process requires that you do. So I just used the usual avatar photo I had handy.

are living thousands of miles away from an estranged wife

Oh, so now you are back to psychoanalyzing my wife I see. Does your wife know how you spend so much of your time behind closed doors, preoccupied with more beautiful women? My wife is not "estranged" in any sense. And I am not living "thousands of miles away." Just admit for once in your life, that you really have no flipping idea what the hell you are talking about.

and your friends consisted of young women.

Then name them. I do have friends who are women and who also happen to be young. But none that you are aware of, and none that represent a threat to my wife. The only person in the list that I know, has been an friend long before I ever signed up, and if you click on her profile you'll see she is married with a new baby and living in San Francisco. Yeah, I'm looking to score there.

The odd thing is that I have not thought about you or mentioned you since I spoke to you last, but you bring up my name without cause repeatedly.

Tradd Button is really your name? Say it ain't so. Why would mentioning your name somehow prove I "have a problem," when you're the one doing research on someone you hate, and someone you haven't spoken to in more than a year, and then confronting him once you think you found reason to embarrass him in public? Who has the problem here?

Tradd Button is the name by which I know you best. I was the original user of "pumplehoober" over at ZLMB. Incidentally, that is the only reason you use it now, further illustrating your creepy obesession with me.

You tell me who has the problem.

You came here to pick a fight with me as usual. That's all you ever do, but you've never been worth the time. You don't argue the issues, you only want to argue about character. Calling someone a racist or bigot is the closest you've ever been to a debate.

And no, you didn't come across that myspace page by chance. You had to have searched for it, which means I was on your mind quite recently. If you search dartagnank on google the myspace page is one of the first links that comes up. But you just said you haven't even thought of me since we last spoke... so who is lying now Tradd?

Call it whatever you like, but I know what the call it where I am from.

I suspect that over in Egypt it would be considered envy.

That sounds about right.

[_MsJack]

Can you REALLY not remember what you did three months ago? Seriously? And how odd that you deleted all evidence once it was brought to light. You can deny all you like. The facts are, you advertised yourself as single, are living thousands of miles away from an estranged wife, and your friends consisted of young women. Call it whatever you like, but I know what the call it where I am from.

Kevin and I have had our differences in the past. But right now I would like to express my opinion that what happens with his marriage is his own damn business unless he chooses to make it otherwise, and to attack him on that front is extremely low.

[_Pumplehoober]

Kevin, you can bluster all you like, and the attempts as dissimulation are entertaining, but you are a fan of good argumentation and logic, so you should appreciate the reasonableness of my assertions.

Given that you have left the Mormon faith. Most critics here would be unsurprised that a wife would leave a disbelieving husband, from comments I have read, and you are disbelieving. Added to that, you attempted to convince your potential future brother-in-law to NOT join the faith, which may have miffed both sister-in-law and wife. Added to this you relocated to the greater Atlanta Metropolitan Area roughly around the time you left the faith. Then given your MySpace page with multiple young women friends and a single status, the natural conclusion is rather clear. I suppose you could be going back to school, I do not think teaching people to load Microsoft Windows on their PCs is really all that lucrative and the constant job hopping indicates a more viable economic position would be advisable. But you have to ask the reader why you would go back to your home and parents, step or otherwise, if you had someplace else to go.

In other words, bluster all you like, the conclusion is logical and reasonable. It seems like your hubris is getting in the way again. You do not want the Mormons to know your life fell apart when you left Mormonism, so you're posturing. I say come clean, they will claim your loss of faith is the reason if you admit it now or in 10 years, and the lie is all the more damning. Either way, we both know the truth.

[Guest]

You do not want the Mormons to know your life fell apart when you left Mormonism, so you're posturing.

And the truth finally comes out for this very pointed attempt to harm Dart's rep. You need to prove that someone leaving the Mormon faith will "destroy his life".

Once again it's the Mormon really talking about his own fears, and not the object of his scorn.

Look. Pumplehoober. Everyone has challenges. When you're in Mormonism they're called "trials". When you're out of Mormonism it's called "punishment". People divorce. People get fired or quit jobs. People move. People, especially Mormon types, tomcat around... They just keep it on the downlow. There is nothing about Mormonism that elevates the individual to a higher level of social order. Nothing. In fact, it most likely has the opposite effect.

Since you're so keen to expose Kevin, let's have a look at you shall we? Please start by providing your true name, and then links to any other sites that may contain personal information. RCrockett would appreciate that...

[_EAllusion]

Knowing Tradd's character, his reading comprehension, and his personal vendettas, I'd put the odds of Tradd making false accusations here, intentional or not, at over 99%.

[_beastie]

Knowing Tradd's character, his reading comprehension, and his personal vendettas, I'd put the odds of Tradd making false accusations here, intentional or not, at over 99%.

Yeah, I thought I remembered that pumplehoober = tradd. 'nuff said.

[_Pumplehoober]

Knowing Tradd's character, his reading comprehension, and his personal vendettas, I'd put the odds of Tradd making false accusations here, intentional or not, at over 99%.

There is a simple way to prove this, why not provide some false accusations I have made. Since the "odds" are "over 99%" you should easily be able to come up with a dozen or so.

Also, if my conclusions are incorrect, why not poke holes in them? Why not put your brain pan where your mouth is? Surely writing term papers for freshmen has not softened your brain that much.

[_dartagnan]

Kevin, you can bluster all you like, and the attempts as dissimulation are entertaining, but you are a fan of good argumentation and logic, so you should appreciate the reasonableness of my assertions.

Tradd, there is nothing reasonable about you or your obsession with me. You should at least admit that you just lied when you said that you haven't thought of me in over a year, and yet here you are doing google searches trying to dig up more dirt on me. Logic will lead reasonable people to the conclusion that you're lying. It is impossible to do a conscious search for someone while at the same time, not think about them.

Given that you have left the Mormon faith. Most critics here would be unsurprised that a wife would leave a disbelieving husband, from comments I have read, and you are disbelieving.

I have discussed my marital issues at length with various posters here, including Moniker, but it would be a terrible disservice to the truth to say my wife left me, or that she is even considering it. You are again leaping to conclusions without knowledge. You gather whatever crumbs of data I have left on the web, and then you filter it through your hatred of me to fabricate this story line that has no resemblance to the truth.

And oh yeah, all of this, even though you haven't though of me since we last spoke years ago, right?

Added to that, you attempted to convince your potential future brother-in-law to NOT join the faith, which may have miffed both sister-in-law and wife.

Mainly my sister-in-law, but she was upset with the fact that I was open and honest about LDS beliefs. David asked me questions and I answered honestly. I didn't lie, as she would prefer I do. She was consciously lying to him and felt the end justified the means. Did this litle fact escape you? I did not try to dissuade him from joining the faith. I simply gave him more information and let him make up his own mind. I let him know it wasn't for me anymore, but I also told him the "Church is like a suit. It fits some people. Maybe it fits you."

I gave him a chance to make an informed choice. Something I never had when investigating as a 16 year old. If he had decided to get baptized, so be it. I told him I would support him if that was his choice. Heck, I even invited the sister missionaries over for dinner that same night. I never once interrupted them as they taught. I also had conversations with his wife and advised her to stop lying to him because he would find out these things and then be resentful of her.

Incidentally, my wife and her sister are not speaking with one another, nor have they for many months now. Their diferences are familial - particularly on the reemergence of their biological mother- and have nothing to do with the Church. So your theory here is without merit, and only appears "natural" to those who have low standards of research - given the dearth of data you have to work with.

Added to this you relocated to the greater Atlanta Metropolitan Area roughly around the time you left the faith.

My reasons for coming back to Atlanta have nothing to do with marital problems. On the contrary, it has everything to do with:

1. Bringing the kids so they can meet their grandmother/aunts/uncles/cousins for the first time.

2. Preparation for brining the entire family up here to live.

Which is why your imaginative scenario is so funny. We decided as a family to take advantage of the poor economy here. We had initially planned to move back to the USA 5-7 years down the road, but decided to do it sooner than later, because the dollar is dropping and now is the time to buy a house if you can afford it.

When I first moved to Brasil 1 dollar was around 3.1 in Brasilian currency, and now it is around 1.6. Our house in Brasil is bought and paid for, and was recently appraised at 390,000 reis. Five years ago that would translate to around 130,000 dollars but now it would be around 250,000. When I went back in November the dollar was still dropping. Just take a look at how it has been dropping further even throughout 2008: ttp://www.x-rates.com/d/BRL/USD/hist2008.png

Then given your MySpace page with multiple young women friends and a single status

As I already demonstrated, and as you repeatedly refuse to acknowledge, Myspace is not a dating site. My Filipino friend in California sent me an invite via email and I signed up quickly, wrote a few sentences as an introduction, and never used it again. Myspace has default settings for those who don't bother to fill out profile information, one of which is "single." I know you went through the process in an attempt to prove I am lying about this, but now that you're proved wrong, you still choose to let your hate drive you. You're not interested in any facts that don't disturb your fantasy.

"Multiple" young women? I recollect three, along with two or three men as well. Only one of the females was actual, the rest virtual. The one who is real is a friend who is married, who recently had a child and lives 3000 miles away.

Again, what is the crime in having friends who are women? Not everyone here is a Muslim Tradd. What you find offensive in Egypt is not necessarily offensive in the real world.

I suppose you could be going back to school, I do not think teaching people to load Microsoft Windows on their PCs is really all that lucrative and the constant job hopping indicates a more viable economic position would be advisable.

Er, huh? I have never taught such a thing in my life, nor do I think such a job exists. Here you go again creating the worst case scenario using the nibble of data you managed to forage - my IT background.

But you have to ask the reader why you would go back to your home and parents, step or otherwise, if you had someplace else to go.

I explained my situation to friends on the forum, in private conversation. Suffice it to say, my reasons for coming back to the USA are none of your business. But I'll enlighten you.

bluster all you like, the conclusion is logical and reasonable. It seems like your hubris is getting in the way again.

No, I simply have a better grasp on the facts about my life than you do. You operate in ignorance, as usual. Just who the hell do you think you're impressing here?

You do not want the Mormons to know your life fell apart when you left Mormonism, so you're posturing.

First of all, my life hasn't "fallen apart." Sure, I've had to learn to live without a testimony, and sure, my wife is teetering and tottering back and forth about the Church, but she was never a die-hard Utah-type Mormon. She attends primarily for social reasons. I don't have a problem with her attending, nor do I have a problem attending with her on occassion.

"Fallen apart"?

I have spoken of my family situation on the Mormon-related forums. Why would I do that if I were trying to hide it from Mormons?

I say come clean, they will claim your loss of faith is the reason if you admit it now or in 10 years, and the lie is all the more damning.

You clearly don't understand Mormons.

Even if all you said were true, Mormons need to know that apostates left because of sin, and they need to know that apostates will be more miserable after they leave.

Mormons would never acknowledge that I left the Church because I have come across information onmy own, otherwise unavailable to me. I linked to a thread at FAIR where everyone was bending over backwards trying to deny that anyone could possibly leave the Church for intellectual reasons. For them it has to be a spiritual issue - meaning, the person sinned and didn't want to repent. Moreover, Mormons will never acknowledge the possibility that ex-Mormons could find happiness outside the Church. Such a scenario won't compute for them.

Either way, we both know the truth.

Uh huh. Like you knew the "truth" about how long I have been married. You tried saying I was lying about that too, just because you didn't get your facts straight. Jack Meyers attended my wedding, so she can testify that it was in March of 2002.

For those of you who are actually bored enough to read all of this, you should know that Tradd has a history with this sort of obsession. When I first moved to Brasil in April of 2005 I posted in the FAIR forum a question about what to do with a crying baby. I had been in Brasil for a week or two. My wife was attending school and I had not seen my 9 month old daughter since her birth, so I planned to spend the first few weeks in Brasil, not working, but rather alone with my daughter. I had a job lined up working as a network administrator for a clinic, as well as a teaching position at a private high school. I informed both employers that I would not be available until the end of the following month.

Tradd read my "mayday" post at FAIR, realized I was alone at home with my daughter, and then used this data to arrive at another "natural" conclusion. He concluded that I couldn't find employment and I needed my wife to support me. I'm not kidding either.

In reality, I was supporting my family in every way one could. I sent money every month, paid for my wife's education, and still managed to save money to start construction on our new home in Brasilia. Within the year I hired a half dozen workers to build our 3500 square foot home. Saving the money to do that was, after all, the reason I stayed in the USA until my daughter was 9 months old. But Tradd was only privy to a fraction of the data, and that was all he was interested in because it was easy and "natural" for him to reach the most negative conclusion possible.

Craziest thing of all about this stuff, Tradd is supposed to be some kind of big shot scholar living in Egypt. He has claimed to be able to beat up any man in the world -student of Aikido- and has bragged about how wealthy he has become charging his clients "outrageous" sums of money for doing nothing more than providing them with advice. We're hardly dealing with a humble individual here.

He takes pride in his supposed high standards of morality as a Muslim and research as a scholar. He's been stalking and harrassing me online ever since I first posted comments critical of Islam on ZLMB back in 2003.