Are homophobes born that way?

[_The Dude]

So, they're not more fertile? They're just having more sex with their partners?

Right. More sex would be enough to give this outcome, and also I cannot think of a mechanism for increased fertility (e.g. better eggs or cycles or female plumbing) in women to also impact the behavior of male relatives. There could be, but I don't see it.

Yet, I think even with an enormous amount of sex women can still control their rates of reproduction. Yet, I wasn't suggesting they SHOULD normalize, I just didn't understand why if you had 2 women and they both had the ability to control reproduction why there would be a discrepancy in rates.

We aren't talking about just 2 women, of course. Thousands of women. So small things like birth control failure can make a statistical difference.

Unless of course your number 3 does somehow play into it where these women actually desire more children. <--- Which just seems silly, to me....

Why is it silly? Some women don't use birth control for personal reasons just like #3. And if they are androphiliacs, they have more sex. They try harder. It's not such a chore for them to get with their partner. ;) It would seem that the ones who actually want kids, and choose not to use birth control, are the very women who are producing most of the babies and passing on their genes. Why wouldn't androphilia be a plus for their reproductive fitness?

by the way, Mister Scratch made a very good point that I hadn't thought of.

I can't wait until you write something oafish on the board that doesn't deal with science and I swoop in .... :)

Never!

[_Moniker]

Yet, I think even with an enormous amount of sex women can still control their rates of reproduction. Yet, I wasn't suggesting they SHOULD normalize, I just didn't understand why if you had 2 women and they both had the ability to control reproduction why there would be a discrepancy in rates.

We aren't talking about just 2 women, of course. Thousands of women. So small things like birth control failure can make a statistical difference.

Well. that's true...

Unless of course your number 3 does somehow play into it where these women actually desire more children. <--- Which just seems silly, to me....

Why is it silly? Some women don't use birth control for personal reasons just like #3. And if they are androphiliacs, they have more sex. They try harder. It's not such a chore for them to get with their partner. ;) It would seem that the ones who actually want kids, and choose not to use birth control, are the very women who are producing most of the babies and passing on their genes. Why wouldn't androphilia be a plus for their reproductive fitness?

Well, I think it probably is a plus. Yet, I mean does the gene have anything to do with their desire to have more children? I mean, what else am I missing? Do women that desire more sex actually desire more children? Is this something obvious I'm missing? I suppose I'm looking at this as sex = pleasure from a young woman's point of view and don't view sex = children....

Gawd, I hope desiring sex doesn't correlate to wanting more children!!!

I can't wait until you write something oafish on the board that doesn't deal with science and I swoop in .... :)

Never!

We'll see.... ;)

~edited~
Obviously sex equals offspring, yet, I suppose I'm looking at this from our culture and where sex is not equated to having offspring, necessarily.

[_The Dude]

...does the gene have anything to do with their desire to have more children? I mean, what else am I missing? Do women that desire more sex actually desire more children? Is this something obvious I'm missing? I suppose I'm looking at this as sex = pleasure from a young woman's point of view and don't view sex = children....

Gawd, I hope desiring sex doesn't correlate to wanting more children!!!

I only brought up the possible desire for children to suggest one reason why birth control is not an issue. Pleasure and attraction would seem to be enough. I mean, presumably gay men who feel androphilia aren't acting on it because they want to get pregnant.

[_Moniker]

...does the gene have anything to do with their desire to have more children? I mean, what else am I missing? Do women that desire more sex actually desire more children? Is this something obvious I'm missing? I suppose I'm looking at this as sex = pleasure from a young woman's point of view and don't view sex = children....

Gawd, I hope desiring sex doesn't correlate to wanting more children!!!

I only brought up the possible desire for children to suggest one reason why birth control is not an issue. Pleasure and attraction would seem to be enough. I mean, presumably gay men who feel androphilia aren't acting on it because they want to get pregnant.

Ah, okay.

Will refrain from posing questions about science thingy majingys in the future to Mr. smarty pants sciency posters in the future! :)

[_cksalmon]

Or, perhaps not. But, perhaps, on some level, it makes sense to argue that "homophobia" is a learned behavior, rather than an innate one?

I dunno.

And all those kids who play "Doctors and nurses", "Doctors and doctors", "Nurses and nurses".

Does a five year old ever want to cut off the penis of another five year old? Since Gaz maintains he was this way since the pre-mortal existence, I suppose it's possible in his case.

But like you, I dunno either.

Now, see, I was trying to make a funny regarding the division between the innateness vs. learnedness crowds in the homosexuality debate. Apparently, it was so subtle (read: lame) that it didn't register on anyone's radar.

[/playfulness]

[_Droopy]

Coretta Scott King:
"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

American Journal of Orthopsychiatry:
"Racism, sexism, and homophobia do not fit into any current diagnostic category. The authors propose that those who engage in such behaviors display a form of psychopathology deserving of its own category. The common denominator seems to be intolerance. The authors explore the possibility of an intolerant personality disorder, outline likely symptoms, and suggest some possible treatment considerations."

this study seems to support the claim that homophobia is the result of repressed homosexual urges.

The Journal of Abnormal Psychology:
Each participant was exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual and lesbian videotapes (but not necessarily in that order). Their degree of sexual arousal was measured by penile plethysmography, which precisely measures and records male tumescence...
Broken down further, the measurements showed that while 66% of the nonhomophobic group showed no significant tumescence while watching the male homosexual video, only 20% of the homophobic men showed little or no evidence of arousal. Similarly, while 24% of the nonhomophobic men showed definite tumescence while watching the homosexual video, 54% of the homophobic men did."

I would like to hear from some of the LDS posters about when they first began to feel an aversion to alternative sexual preferences? Were you born this way? Indoctrinated? Did your aversion begin after you had children?

You and Winston Smith would not have gotten along very well.

[_Some Schmo]

The other thing to point out (from an evolutionary standpoint) is that there are always subtle differences with each generation. Not all genetic mutations benefit survival (the majority don't, in fact).

For example, we evolved as social animals, and hence, have an innate morality because our surviving ancestors were the ones for whom social cooperation was important. But that doesn't mean that every single human being that's born today will be moral. We still see psychopaths being born into the species, although they are in the minority, which makes sense since destructive behavior tends to shorten lifespan, or at least, the opportunities to reproduce.

Although I strongly believe homosexual attraction is genetic in nature, it seems obvious it's not (at least, directly) hereditary.

[_GoodK]

You and Winston Smith would not have gotten along very well.

Maybe it's been too long since I read Orwell, but I don't get it.

[_Droopy]

I didn't think you would.

[_GoodK]

I didn't think you would.

Good job. While I work on deciphering your insult, go ahead and enjoy this song. It sums up how I feel about now...